Questions by Non-Christians (Archived)This forum is for non-believers seeking to know more about Christianity. This forum is NOT for Apologetics or debates.
The church, ekklesia, the called out, the elect, the saints, Christians, existed before the full revelation of God was received. The catholic denomination did not exists until 325 AD with the council of Nicea. The church is nothing more than the collection of saints, it is not an earthly organization with an extrabiblical hierarchy and traditions that cannot be found in Scripture.
It is not my intent to discredit anyone personally with these posts - I know many catholics who are wonderful people - but it is my intent to set the record straight. It really doesn't matter that the full revelation of God was received after the first Christians walked the face of the earth, because the full revelation was received well before the start of the catholic denomination.
Dr. Dobson cannot add his words to the word of God because the Scriptures profess to us that we have received the full revelation, and there are no longer any miralces by which Dr. Dobson might prove his inspiration.
I guess simply put, there are two reasons: God says no, and Dr. Dobson can't prove it's Scripture.
__________________ Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
Rom 10:17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
History does not support your statement that the Catholic church did not exist until the 4th century. From the historical documents we have from the 1st century, those who were contemporaries of the apostles, we know there was organization. For that matter, the church as a recognizable entity is clearly seen in the book of Acts. There we have the Jerusalem council, the establishment of the office of deacon, Paul submitting himself to the apostles authority, people giving money to Peter for the church's use, the church assigning missionaries, ordaining leaders and baptising believers. All of these acts come from an organization. The Jerusalem council is the strongest indication of unity and organization.
But beyond that, who said any thing about the Catholic church. I certainly didn't. I might have made reference to the catholic church, but not the Catholic (Roman) church. Rome was only one of five Sees in the ancient church and held no universal authority over the other four.
And should you think this is some Catholic or Orthodox propaganda, I learned my history from a Protestant.
Peace.
Peter
__________________ "Tradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living." Jaroslav Pelikan
I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but in regards to the original question, when the author of a book of the bible mentions anything about not adding or subtracting, I believe he is simply talking about that particular book of the bible that he wrote, since the bible as we know it didn't exist back then. Right? So literally, what it says in revelation is only meant (by the author) for revelation. Now it is my belief that God, in His amazing widom and knowledge, knew these words would come and planned it so that it pretty much now applys to the bible as a whole (which all people regard as such today). So the application of these words from revelation only, to the whole bible, is part of God's planning in my opinion, since it's now basically impossible to add or subtract from the bible legally. This way has seeled the bible from being tampered with for the rest of time now. It's now protected, through an amazing plan which acknowledges God's awesome divinity and wisdom.
EDIT: Just another perspective, but I see peter has touched on this as well.
May the peace of our Lord be with you all.
__________________ "Holy Mother, may you inflict the stripes of the Crucified One deeply on my heart." -- [Stabat Mater, G.P da Palestrina, 1525-94]
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Last edited by Rising_Suns; 14th September 2003 at 02:43 AM.
First of all let me say that there is nothing wrong, considering your original question, with using the Bible as an explanation for the question. The fact that you do not think that it is a "good enough excuse" that Apostles\people who knew the Apostles and Jesus wrote the NT is quite besides the point, given Jesus' words,and those of the disciples, directly contradict what you are saying. Thus, for Jesus, the written record of His words and deeds was indeed, more than a good enough excuse. The fact is, Jesus, when He went away, promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to bring to their remembrance the things He had said, and that they should pass His message of the new kingdom, the gospel or good news, on to others, i.e. as in the Great Commision verses at the end of Matthew.
(John 14:26 NNAS) "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
(Mat 28:19-20 NNAS) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, {20} teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (emphasis mine)
So we have Jesus Himself indicating that there would be and had been additional revelations from God, indeed, that Jesus always did what the Father commanded, He was THE revelation of the father, and that it was up to the early church to remember those messages. And Jesus promised them that they would accurately remember, whether orally or in written form, His very words... and why have them remember them if not to pass them on to succeeding generations?
(John 8:29 NNAS) "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."
(John 4:34 NNAS) Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.
(John 5:30 NNAS) "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
(John 14:9-11 NNAS) Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? {10} "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. {11} "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves."
The fact is, Jesus fulfilled much of the Scriptures (all of the sacrificial aspects) (Luke 4:21 NNAS) And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." .... so it was encumbant upon the disciples to make this fact known to everyone, not just to those who were present that day in the synagouge, since Jesus Himself was making it known when and where He preached. Here was the very Word of God Himself, in the flesh, and being God, whatever He said, and whatever He did, was "special revelation", and will thus automatically be "adding" to our understanding about who God is and what He requires.
So without the addition of further Scriptures, how would you have known about the Savior?
(John 20:30-31 NNAS) Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; {31} but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
How would we have known what the Passover really signified, if the words of the Last Supper were not recorded for us? Jesus speciafically said to to partake of the bread and wine in remembrance of Him:
(1 Cor 11:23-26 NNAS) For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; {24} and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." {25} In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." {26} For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes."
The NT speaks out as a witness to Christ, His work of propitiation and expiation on the cross, and His righteous deeds.... it would nearly seem to be impossible, if Jesus is indeed who He claimed to be, not to record what He did....
Next, we must realize that Paul was especially conscripted to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. We (Gentiles) would not know that we did not have to convert to Judaism in order to be recieved by God, had it not been for Paul's writings. Several things need to be brought up at this junture then... namely that we have the testimony of one of Jesus' closest disciples (Peter) that it was the Holy Spirit who superinteded the writings that became known as the NT, and secondly, that he considered Paul's writings to be on par in regards to authority, with the OT.
(2 Pet 1:20-21 NIV) Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. {21} For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
(2 Pet 3:15-16 NNAS) and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, {16} as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Lastly, consider this one last passage in regard to whether or not Jesus wanted His words recorded, and that they were so important, that they were actually more significant than the OT, for if the OT was the word of God, then surely, what Jesus said and did was nothing less, but rather, something more, namely the key to understanding the existing Scriptures....
(John 5:31-47 NNAS) "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. {32} "There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true. {33} "You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. {34} "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. {35} "He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. {36} "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. {37} "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. {38} "You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. {39} "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; {40} and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. {41} "I do not receive glory from men; {42} but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. {43} "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. {44} "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? {45} "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. {46} "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. {47} "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
Linear Mode
