Questions by Non-Christians (Archived)This forum is for non-believers seeking to know more about Christianity. This forum is NOT for Apologetics or debates.
The NT canon came to exist as a matter of necessity. There were many letters and other such things out there back in the early centuries. But one Marcion, a heretic, formed his own canon. The Church saw the necessity to form it's own canon of orthodox writings so as to avoid a problem like Marcion from occurring again. So they chose the most inspired and authoratative texts and formed the canon and then closed the canon. That is obviously an abridged account. But that's the gist of how it came to be. It became the authority, the standard of measure, which is not meant to be altered by addition or subtraction.
Apparently no one else can see that you can't effectively prove something's validity with itself. You can't say to someone who has never been outside "the sky is purple because the sky is purple". They might believe you because they've never seen it but that doesn't make it true. Just like you can't say "2 Cor. is the word of God because Paul says so in 2 Cor."
If something is Scripture, then the one through whom it is revealed will be able to prove it. Can Dr. Dobson prove his words are from God?
__________________ Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
Rom 10:17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Last edited by aggie03; 3rd September 2003 at 02:55 PM.
An interesting question and even more interesting (sic. humerous) responses.
The question that was asked comes from a flawed understanding of the scripture that was quoted (as it often is). The scripture :
"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take awayhis part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Rev. 22:18-19 NKJV
The original post assumes that "this book" is equal to all of the holy scriptures. As John says, "this book of prophecy," are we to assume that ALL of the Bible is prophecy? And if anyone adds to it or takes from it, are they subject to a plague of darkness or flies or hail and fire? No. John's writing is the prophecy. His warning is to those who would add or subtract to his book of revelation. What he is getting at is this work, this specific book, is from God and man cannot add to it without punishment.
The "sister" text to this one is written by Paul. He tells Timothy that "all scripture is inspired by God." Was he refering to the entire completed canon? No. Read the preceding text. Paul tells Timothy that the scriptures he had heard from his childhood are able to make him wise unto salvation. What scripture had Timothy heard from his childhood? The Old Testament of course.
Now that we have that part cleaned up, lets look at the idea of authority and why we can't/won't add someone like Dr. Dobson to the scriptures.
Paul tells Timothy in his first letter to the young believer that the church of the living God is the pillar and foundation of truth. (I Timothy 3:15) He further instructs that the church is the body of the head, Jesus. (Ephesians 5) Now some would want to see this as a head like a president, but the church has never understood the headship of Christ in this way. She (God's inspired pronoun for the church, not mine) is the REAL body of the REAL head, Christ. How is this? Couldn't even begin to tell you. It is a mystery.
This body of Christ, her pure bride, through the inspiration of her true Head, sorted through all the texts that were available, set up a set of criteria, and examined each document against that criteria. Those that passed the test were "canonized" as being authentic and trust worthy by the church. In short, the church protected the real from the fake, thus fulfilling the truth that she is the pillar and foundation of truth.
There is a mistaken idea by those who pick and chose their canons of the church like some buffet dinner, that there are no other books that could be added to the NT. This is not true. The canons of the church allow for the addition of books if they could pass the test of the original criteria and it was agreed upon by the church in a full council. However, this will not likely happen because the church is splintered between East and West, and so no full council is likely to occur. Also, there is no evidence that any further works exist that should be considered.
Now, what I've given is lengthy for this arena, so let me give a summary. The books we have are there because the church said they should be there. There is no other answer. I'm sorry if this bothers you. One must become like a little child to understand, accept, the things of God.
Peace.
Peter
__________________ "Tradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living." Jaroslav Pelikan
Maybe you should read my original post...Dr. Dobson was an example. It could be anyone...there are people out there who do "magic" or "miracles" but they aren't necessarily from God. Not saying that the apostles weren't from God, but do you know for a fact they were from God? The only proof you'd do is to quote me a scripture...but that goes back to my original question -- if anything past Deut. was added by breaking God's law, then it can't be considered valid.
Peter:
Your answer was very good...probably the first that was along the lines of what I was looking for. But you talked about the Revelations verse...what about Deuteronomy? The "church" wasn't even started until Paul started it...for that matter, "Christians" weren't even around until Paul. The term Christians, as a religion, was considered a cult by people of that time...but this isn't about Christian history. If the verse in Deuteronomy is to be believed, then Revelations shouldn't even be in the Bible, right?
You're right, I did not address the Deut. passage. But it reads in a similar way as the other passages. Notice the word used is "command", not "commanded". God is saying that He will direct His people. He is not saying that He is going to drop rules on them and then go away for a while and they had better be marching right when He gets back.
No. God's plan from the start was to be Israel's/The Church's ruler. It is a Theistic Monarchy. God gave Israel a human king because Israel wanted one. (Boy, there's a topic for another thread!)
In short, what God has said all along, beginning with Adam and Eve and all the way down through the apostles, "Follow me and listen to me. Don't try and do it on your own." This is what is meant when God says not to add to His commands.
Can writers today be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Yes! (My very existance depends on the Holy Spirit breathing in me. I cannot controll the beating of my heart. I need the Holy Spirit inspiring, breathing in me, to do this.)
Should it be included in the Bible? No. Today's writings don't meet the criteria set up by the church, namely having been written by an apostle or an apostles disciple. (There are others, but this one alone knocks out anything written today.)
Can we test today's writings for validity? Yes. They should be in agreement with what the church has taught from the beginning, in all places and held by all those in communion with the church.
Are there writings that one can read to see what the church has always taught, and how it has interpreted the scriptures? You bet. There's a paper trail that makes Water Gate look like a grocery receipt.
There's so much more I want to say, but feel constrianed to limit it to what I've written this far. I hope this answers some of your questions.
In addition, I sincerely pray that God will guide you and sustain you, make His face to shine upon you and give you peace.
To the glory of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Peace.
Peter
__________________ "Tradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living." Jaroslav Pelikan
The Apostle John was shown a vision by God and was commanded by God to write it down. This became the Book of Revelation.
And the authority of the Church, with the blessing of the Holy Spirit, set the canon of the Bible to include the Book of Revelation.
The CHURCH existed before the Bible.
__________________ Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. John 6:53-55
Last edited by KennySe; 4th September 2003 at 12:07 PM.
Interesting note about Revelation and Hebrews.
The four Sees of the Christian East did not want to include Revelation into the NT. The See of Rome did. Conversely, the See of Rome didn't want Hebrews included, the four Sees of the East did. A compromise was reached, a kind of "we'll include yours if you include ours" situation.
But to this day the Christian East does not use the book of Revelation in any of her services, but does not debate it's authenticity. And, as a westerner brought up with a form of Western Christianity, I know there are still major debates as to the authenticity of the book of Hebrews, within the West, but it's used.
(The history of the compilation of the holy scriptures is fascinating!)
__________________ "Tradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living." Jaroslav Pelikan
An interesting question and even more interesting (sic. humerous) responses.
The question that was asked comes from a flawed understanding of the scripture that was quoted (as it often is). The scripture :
"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take awayhis part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Rev. 22:18-19 NKJV
The original post assumes that "this book" is equal to all of the holy scriptures. As John says, "this book of prophecy," are we to assume that ALL of the Bible is prophecy? And if anyone adds to it or takes from it, are they subject to a plague of darkness or flies or hail and fire? No. John's writing is the prophecy. His warning is to those who would add or subtract to his book of revelation. What he is getting at is this work, this specific book, is from God and man cannot add to it without punishment.
The "sister" text to this one is written by Paul. He tells Timothy that "all scripture is inspired by God." Was he refering to the entire completed canon? No. Read the preceding text. Paul tells Timothy that the scriptures he had heard from his childhood are able to make him wise unto salvation. What scripture had Timothy heard from his childhood? The Old Testament of course.
Now that we have that part cleaned up, lets look at the idea of authority and why we can't/won't add someone like Dr. Dobson to the scriptures.
Paul tells Timothy in his first letter to the young believer that the church of the living God is the pillar and foundation of truth. (I Timothy 3:15) He further instructs that the church is the body of the head, Jesus. (Ephesians 5) Now some would want to see this as a head like a president, but the church has never understood the headship of Christ in this way. She (God's inspired pronoun for the church, not mine) is the REAL body of the REAL head, Christ. How is this? Couldn't even begin to tell you. It is a mystery.
This body of Christ, her pure bride, through the inspiration of her true Head, sorted through all the texts that were available, set up a set of criteria, and examined each document against that criteria. Those that passed the test were "canonized" as being authentic and trust worthy by the church. In short, the church protected the real from the fake, thus fulfilling the truth that she is the pillar and foundation of truth.
There is a mistaken idea by those who pick and chose their canons of the church like some buffet dinner, that there are no other books that could be added to the NT. This is not true. The canons of the church allow for the addition of books if they could pass the test of the original criteria and it was agreed upon by the church in a full council. However, this will not likely happen because the church is splintered between East and West, and so no full council is likely to occur. Also, there is no evidence that any further works exist that should be considered.
Now, what I've given is lengthy for this arena, so let me give a summary. The books we have are there because the church said they should be there. There is no other answer. I'm sorry if this bothers you. One must become like a little child to understand, accept, the things of God.
Peace.
Peter
Isn't that similar to what I said in light of the quoted verse from the Gospel of John?
__________________ *************************************************** Macedonia Missionary Baptist Church of Carraway, Florida. Established 1916.
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I think it means to not add to or diminish the truth of God's Word in any way. What your suggesting would effectively make us and God mute which cannot be. The Holy Spirit of God, given by God in the New Testament, leads us into truth - about ourselves and everything in creation.
God is living and not bound to ink and paper, never to express Himself again. It is the Spirit that gives life to scripture that is dead without it.
Recognizing the truth is important when others and even our own nature would believe lies and spread them. God's Spirit watches over His Word that it accomplishes what He wants, and it is the Spirit of truth. Even reading the Bible cannot keep a person safe from lies. Only God's Spirit can reveal the truth of scripture. This abiding gift of the Holy Spirit preserves the truth and the person that has ears for it.
__________________ Galations 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
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