Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Discussion and Debate > Physical & Life Sciences > Creation & Evolution
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 29th August 2003, 10:44 PM
JohnR7's Avatar
Legend

62 Gender: Male Married Faith: Pentecostal Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 9th February 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 25,401
Blessings: 252,857
Reps: 12,682 (power: 0)
JohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to behold
JohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to behold
Dr Dino: Can Man Tell Time?

Often I hear about how easy it is to falsify Dr. Dino's teachings. Well, here is a artical that he wrote on time. Here is your chance to falsify Dr. Dino and prove him wrong. The artical can be found at:

http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=45

The name of it is: DOES GOD EXPECT MAN TO BE ABLE TO TELL TIME?

In this artical, Dr. Dino trys to show that there are many things that God does in a instant of time. For example, Jesus created wine out of water in a instant of time. Now, in the natural we all know how long it takes for nature to turn water into wine. But here Jesus accomplished that in a moment of time.

Dr. Dino's arguement of course then is: if in all these areas that he lists in the artical God does things very rapidly,that would appear to take a long amount of time in the natural. Then could God not have created a world in a very short period of time, that in the natural apart from God would have taken a very long time to create and accomplish?

Remember, this is not a place to present your theory. This is your golden opportunity to prove Dr. Dino's theory wrong.

Below I would like to add a list where he performs works over great distances being covered instantly from Heaven to earth, earth to Heaven, and different places on earth as fast as if not even bound by the speed of light:

1. Satanís Fall like lightning from Heaven
2. Satan travels to and from the earth seeking whom he may devour at least at the speed of light and according to the Book of Job was able to approach Godís throne in a dialog with God)
3. Elijahís Chariot (He went to heaven and even came back from the 3rd Heaven at Mount Transfiguration, just like Paul did and we will do at the Rapture). To do this, they all have to go even farther than the ends of the first and Second Heavens)
4. Enochí Translation
5. Elijahís sacrifice consumed into Heaven
6. Sending dreams from Heaven to Joseph and Daniel
7. Theopanies of Christ (such as appearing to Abraham, Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego in the fiery furnace)
8. Sending Manna and quail from Heaven
9. Paul visiting Third Heaven and returning to earth
10. Jesus descending into the lower parts of the earth
11. Jesus Resurrection
12. Jesus instant appearance in the upper room
13. Jesus going back to Heaven and returning before Ascension
14. Philip being instantly transported in the spirit to another geographic location
15. Christís Return to the Mount of Olives (If it takes as long as the speed of light for Jesus to get to Heaven and back, we canít expect to see his return for millions of years, plus we would see him returning, but the Bible says no man knows the day or the hour (we would be able to chart his return from the Heavens...it would be hard to miss Him if he is brighter than the sun). And Paul and Elijah could not have returned to the earth again. We would still be waiting for their first return.)
16. Angels ascending and descending from Jacobís ladder
17. Star of Bethlehem (a normal star could not go west to east, then cut south for several miles. Now here is a case where God brought the whole star from the ends of Heaven...not just its light.)
18. "Suddenly a heavenly host appear at the birth of Jesus....then disappear"
19. Every prayer that every saint has ever prayed
20. The Rapture
21. Arrival of New Jerusalem
Examples of God creating things instantly or in a matter of months:
1.Plants, Animals, Adam and Eve created fully formed the same day, All Life, Speech, Global Flood, Enoch's translation, Brazen Serpent (healing reverses decay rate),
2.Clothes and sandals of Israelites in the Wilderness NOT wearing out for 40 years, (total suspension of decay rate),
3.Joshuaís Battle where sun stops for 12 hours, (suspends time and decay rate for entire solar system),
4.Elijah's chariot into Heaven.
5.All of the Miracles including healings and deliverance of demons:
6.Red Sea parting,
7.other Egyptian plagues,
8.water to wine (accelerates decay rate), casting out demons, womanís 12 years of bleeding stopped and her menstrual cycle restored
9.Raising the dead (reverses decay rate)
10.The Transfiguration
11.The Resurrection (demolishes decay rate)
12.Philip being Transported in the spirit
13.New Creation (being born again)
14.Glorification (at the Rapture) (demolishes decay rate)
15.New Heaven and Earth (demolishes decay rate)

So because these were all done instantaneously or very rapidly, God is deceiving us because of the apparent age they often portray? There is NO deception if God told us what he did!
Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #2  
Old 29th August 2003, 10:56 PM
Pete Harcoff's Avatar
PeteAce - In memory of WinAce

36 Gender: Male Faith: Other-Religion Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 30th June 2002
Posts: 8,425
Blessings: 2,139,006
Reps: 9,311,669,886,675,212 (power: 9,311,669,886,695)
Pete Harcoff has disabled reputation
A couple points:

First, supernatural events are by their nature un-falsifiable, since God can do any old thing he wants (it's His nature). For example, He could have zapped my computer in existance before I bought it and I'd never know the difference.

Second, as has been said before, there is a difference between maturity and history. Creating the Earth fully-formed is one thing. Creating it with a complicated geological record spanning 4.5 billion years of history is something else entirely. Ditto with the star light thing. Creating a universe full of stars is one thing. Creating light, in transit, is something else entirely (including light from supernova, which would never have existed in the first place).

Third, if the Earth was created only 6000 years ago, but with the appearence of being 4.5 billion years ago, then of course science is going to say, "Guess what? The Earth looks 4.5 billion years old."

Basically, it comes down a philosophical position that is outside the realm of science.
__________________
Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution

Last edited by Pete Harcoff; 29th August 2003 at 11:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 29th August 2003, 11:49 PM
Arikay's Avatar
HI

30 Gender: Male Faith: Taoist Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 23rd January 2003
Posts: 12,645
Blessings: 135,931
Reps: 5,365 (power: 29)
Arikay is a name known to all
Arikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to all
Not only a philosophy that is outside the realm of science, but one that some might consider heritical (is that a word?) as it says that god designed the earth to be a very complicated Lie. Not a very good position IMHO, but some seem to be ok with it.
__________________

Wei wu wei

Green faeries
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 30th August 2003, 12:07 AM
Newbie

27 Gender: Male Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 29th August 2003
Location: beckley, wv
Posts: 3
Blessings: 134,340
Reps: 10 (power: 0)
hardinsd22 has disabled reputation
Christ

Dear Pete...scientists cant prove the earth to be whatever billion years old can they...their own time theories mess it up...but natural disaster like a flood or God simply making the earth look old are much more reasonalbe...and God wasnt created...Gods pretty old...hes the beginning and end...hes just had this earth for 6000 years...hes been around for forever...so there
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 30th August 2003, 12:17 AM
Pete Harcoff's Avatar
PeteAce - In memory of WinAce

36 Gender: Male Faith: Other-Religion Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 30th June 2002
Posts: 8,425
Blessings: 2,139,006
Reps: 9,311,669,886,675,212 (power: 9,311,669,886,695)
Pete Harcoff has disabled reputation
Originally Posted by hardinsd22
Dear Pete...scientists cant prove the earth to be whatever billion years old can they...
Within the philosophical contraints of science, scientists can most certainly prove the Earth is ~4.5 billion years old.

But if you want to ignore those philosophical contraints, then you can invent any old idea you want. For example, did you know the universe was really created last Thursday by a magic elf named Iggy complete with an entire history and prefabricated memories? That's right, the Earth and universe are only three days old.

their own time theories mess it up...
Huh?

but natural disaster like a flood or God simply making the earth look old are much more reasonalbe...
Except the Earth does not contain evidence that it ever suffered such a cataclysmic flood. Unless, of course, that's part of the deception you seem to be setting up...

and God wasnt created...Gods pretty old...hes the beginning and end...hes just had this earth for 6000 years...hes been around for forever...so there
Sure, whatever rocks your world.
__________________
Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 30th August 2003, 12:29 AM
ThePhoenix's Avatar
Senior Veteran

Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 12th August 2003
Posts: 4,705
Blessings: 160,373
Reps: 907 (power: 0)
ThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really nice
This is a theological arguement at its root. Even DrDino isn't quite miserable enough to try and pass it off as science.

And my defense below does not depend on science, though it does answer some of the questions that science raises.
Now first, he's already stated that his answer below is NON-SCIENTIFIC. So he's invalidated it. But some of these absurdities are wonderful.

This Scripture is amazing in two respects. First it has man seeing and understanding from the beginning of Creation. So there is no billions or even millions of years that the earth was here before man appears. He is here from the beginning. But this passage is significant in a second respect that "invisible" qualities are used to govern the Universe, but they are qualities that continued PAST Creation week to this day.

Col 1:16, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and INVISIBLE, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Once again the main principle of the Universe here is NOT visible. Christ the Invisible God holds everything together not Newton or Einsteinís Laws or anyone else who ever lived.
This suggests two things. One is that god holds the universe together. This is a personal belief. But the second is great. He implies that God doesn't hold together the universe in a predictable fashion. This implication is found where he says that Newton's laws and Einstien's theory don't hold true. Since these were found through studying the natural world he postulates that God is inconsistant in his method of holding together the natural world.


Note that the above examples of the Bible recording that God moved things great distances in the twinkling of an eye are not confined to Godís initial creation but how he continued to do these things throughout Biblical history and promises to do at the end of the Present Age and will do in the Age to Come. It is amazing to me that the same Christian will passionately defend an old earth in that it took the starlight billions of light years to get here, while at the same time defend the Rapture where in a twinkling of an eye we will instantly arrive at the Third Heaven with Jesus which is even further than any star in the known and unknown Second Heaven. Isnít this is a classic case of straining at a gnat but willingly swallowing a camel?
Another attempt at rationalizing. He can't explain it using science, so he falls back on non-science, the answer that "It just happened."

Now here is a HUGE kicker, and it's hard to see it coming.
So because these were all done instantaneously or very rapidly, God is deceiving us because of the apparent age they often portray? There is NO deception if God told us what he did!
Taken with the statements preceeding it it says that God created the universe and everything in it instantly, and told us that. But where are the fossils? Genesis detailed plants, and trees, and birds, and all manner of things, all it would have taken is the line "and he created the bones in the Earth, so that man might wonder at what came before." That's all it would take. No line.

It does not sound to me like there was much of a paradise on earth going on here up to the Flood. In fact, it is implied that the ground would be better after the Flood. Perhaps the effects of the Flood. We certain would agree with Lamech today for those of us who drive cars and heat our homes with the fuel that would only be available to us if there were a global deluge which buried all of the vegetation deep underground to create oil, gas, and coal. Who knows...you may have even put a little "Harry"...a Flood victim into your last tank of gas.
ARGH! Hovind knows that such processes take millions of years. Peat is what happens if you just have decaying organic matter, and it doesn't become coal for a lot longer then 6000 years. Deliberate deception!

And next up the ending quote.
In conclusion, I think the best statement that can be made whether God expects man to be able to tell time is in Jesus Christís own words:

"When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" (Matthew 16:2-3)
Do you really think that Jesus was speaking about CLOCKS!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 30th August 2003, 12:40 AM
Jet Black's Avatar
WinAce > cdesign proponentsists

34 Gender: Female Faith: Atheist Country: England Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 24th June 2003
Location: Chiark
Posts: 18,427
Blessings: 169,925
Reps: 16,712 (power: 45)
Jet Black is a splendid one to behold
Jet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to behold
why does he keep mentioning decay rate?

anyway Hovind's argument is pointless. no-one has said that god cannot. we just say he did not.
__________________
MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 30th August 2003, 12:45 AM
ThePhoenix's Avatar
Senior Veteran

Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 12th August 2003
Posts: 4,705
Blessings: 160,373
Reps: 907 (power: 0)
ThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really niceThePhoenix is just really nice
Originally Posted by Jet Black
why does he keep mentioning decay rate?

anyway Hovind's argument is pointless. no-one has said that god cannot. we just say he did not.
And that saying he did is inconsistant with the scriptures, which is the TRUE word of God according to the scriptures.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 30th August 2003, 12:56 AM
Jet Black's Avatar
WinAce > cdesign proponentsists

34 Gender: Female Faith: Atheist Country: England Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 24th June 2003
Location: Chiark
Posts: 18,427
Blessings: 169,925
Reps: 16,712 (power: 45)
Jet Black is a splendid one to behold
Jet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to behold
exactly, I think he is under the impression that stopping someone's shoes from wearing out is going to change the fine structure constant.
__________________
MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 30th August 2003, 03:21 AM
JohnR7's Avatar
Legend

62 Gender: Male Married Faith: Pentecostal Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 9th February 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 25,401
Blessings: 252,857
Reps: 12,682 (power: 0)
JohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to behold
JohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to beholdJohnR7 is a splendid one to behold
Originally Posted by ThePhoenix
ARGH! Hovind knows that such processes take millions of years. Peat is what happens if you just have decaying organic matter, and it doesn't become coal for a lot longer then 6000 years. Deliberate deception!
It does not take millions of years. You can turn garbage into oil in hours of time.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to Creation & Evolution

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:25 AM.