Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Society > Society > Physical & Life Sciences > Creation & Evolution
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 26th August 2003, 12:02 PM
ReUsAbLePhEoNiX's Avatar
Liberated from SinComplex

39 Gender: Male Faith: Taoist Country: Scotland Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 24th June 2003
Location: Earth, MilkyWay Galaxy
Posts: 2,528
Blessings: 92,466
Reps: 816 (power: 0)
ReUsAbLePhEoNiX is just really niceReUsAbLePhEoNiX is just really niceReUsAbLePhEoNiX is just really niceReUsAbLePhEoNiX is just really niceReUsAbLePhEoNiX is just really niceReUsAbLePhEoNiX is just really niceReUsAbLePhEoNiX is just really nice
polonium halos supporting creationism?

Did you know that scientific evidence abounds to support the biblical accounts of creation and the flood? Were you aware that reports outlining this evidence passed peer review, and were published in the open scientific literature? Have you heard that, decades later, this evidence still stands unrefuted by the scientific community? An Overview

Etched within Earth's foundation rocks -- the granites -- are beautiful microspheres of coloration, halos, produced by the radioactive decay of primordial polonium, which is known to have only a fleeting existence.
The following simple analogy will show how these polonium microspheres -- or halos -- contradict the evolutionary belief that granites formed as hot magma slowly cooled over millions of years. To the contrary, this analogy demonstrates how these halos provide unambiguous evidence of both an almost instantaneous creation of granites and the young age of the earth.
A speck of polonium in molten rock can be compared to an Alka-Seltzer dropped into a glass of water. The beginning of effervescence is equated to the moment that polonium atoms began to emit radiactive particles. In molten rock the traces of those radioactive particles would disappear as quickly as the Alka-Seltzer bubbles in water. But if the water were instantly frozen, the bubbles would be preserved. Likewise, polonium halos could have formed only if the rapidly "effervescing" specks of polonium had been instantly encased in solid rock.
An exceedingly large number of polonium halos are embedded in granites around the world. Just as frozen Alka-Seltzer bubbles would be clear evidence of the quick-freezing of the water, so are these many polonium halos undeniable evidence that a sea of primordial matter quickly "froze" into solid granite. The occurrence of these polonium halos, then, distinctly implies that our earth was formed in a very short time, in complete harmony with the biblical record of creation.
Reports

http://www.halos.com/reports/index.htm here is a link to a dozen technical reports....

any comments?
__________________
csbsju.edu/uspp/ExecutiveSummaries/Bush.htmlpersonality

personality profile of pre-prez Bush predicted the current mess we find ourselves in

Eccl. 10:19: Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything.
Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #2  
Old 26th August 2003, 12:09 PM
Frumious Bandersnatch's Avatar
Contributor

65 Gender: Male Faith: Unitarian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 4th March 2003
Posts: 6,393
Blessings: 117,789
My Mood Amused
Reps: 19,183,710,574,649,584 (power: 19,183,710,574,664)
Frumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond repute
Frumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond repute
This has been known to be bogus for some time. The most recent and detailed refutation that I know of is on Talk Origins
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html
Summary/Conclusions
Gentry's polonium halo hypothesis for a young Earth fails all tests. Gentry's entire thesis is built on a compounded set of assumptions. He is unable to demonstrate that concentric haloes in mica are caused uniquely by alpha particles resulting from the decay of polonium isotopes. His samples are not from "primordial" pieces of the Earth's original crust, but from rocks which have been extensively reworked. Finally, his hypothesis cannot accommodate the many alternative lines of evidence that demonstrate a great age for the Earth. Gentry rationalizes any evidence which contradicts his hypothesis by proposing three "singularities" - one time divine interventions - over the past 6000 years. Of course, supernatural events and processes fall outside the realm of scientific investigations to address. As with the idea of variable radioactive decay rates, once Gentry moves beyond the realm of physical laws, his arguments fail to have any scientific usefulness. If divine action is necessary to fit the halo hypothesis into some consistent model of Earth history, why waste all that time trying to argue about the origins of the haloes based on current scientific theory? This is where most Creationist arguments break down when they try to adopt the language and trappings of science. Trying to prove a religious premise is itself an act of faith, not science.
The Frumious Bandersnatch
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 26th August 2003, 01:21 PM
Jet Black's Avatar
WinAce > cdesign proponentsists

32 Gender: Female Faith: Atheist Country: England Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 24th June 2003
Location: Chiark
Posts: 18,443
Blessings: 125,875
Reps: 16,712 (power: 43)
Jet Black is a splendid one to behold
Jet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to beholdJet Black is a splendid one to behold
iirc corectly, gentry admitted that it was wrong in court.
__________________
MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 26th August 2003, 04:52 PM
Ex-Christian

12 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Party: US-Libertarian Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 30th July 2003
Location: World heroin capital(Baltimore), Maryland
Posts: 1,815
Blessings: 91,307
Reps: 1,350 (power: 11)
Megachihuahua has disabled reputation
It seems gentry's denial is mumbo-jumbo, and says it can't be true because science cannot accept god! It's like ants denying the existence of a footprint because they can't accept humans as the cause.
__________________
I am the Sigless One.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 26th August 2003, 05:09 PM
Arikay's Avatar
HI

28 Gender: Male Faith: Taoist Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 23rd January 2003
Posts: 12,645
Blessings: 92,139
Reps: 5,365 (power: 27)
Arikay is a name known to all
Arikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to all
So, I assume that means you have evidence for god?

Or more important to science, you know how to falsify god (if he was false)?

"God did it" is a cop out.
__________________

Wei wu wei

Green faeries
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 26th August 2003, 05:13 PM
Ex-Christian

12 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Party: US-Libertarian Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 30th July 2003
Location: World heroin capital(Baltimore), Maryland
Posts: 1,815
Blessings: 91,307
Reps: 1,350 (power: 11)
Megachihuahua has disabled reputation
Originally Posted by Arikay
So, I assume that means you have evidence for god?

Or more important to science, you know how to falsify god (if he was false)?

"God did it" is a cop out.
"Evolution did it" is a cop out.
Originally Posted by Arikay
Or more important to science, you know how to falsify god (if he was false)?
No, none of them have any arguments against god, but since they're so smart, the burden of proof is on them.
__________________
I am the Sigless One.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 26th August 2003, 05:29 PM
Arikay's Avatar
HI

28 Gender: Male Faith: Taoist Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 23rd January 2003
Posts: 12,645
Blessings: 92,139
Reps: 5,365 (power: 27)
Arikay is a name known to all
Arikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to allArikay is a name known to all
"Evolution did it" is not a cop out, because then the scientists go on to explain how evolution did it, and back it up with evidence.

"god did it" or "Then a miracle happend" and nothing else (no explination, or evidence) is a cop out, and a bad one at that. You are basically saying "I dont know what happend, but I am right"

Lets find out what would happen if they were allowed into science.

-He was sick, then he got better, why?
-"God did it" or "A miracle Happend"
-Good answer.
And there goes modern medicine. Im sure you have taken advantage of it everyonce in awhile.

The same thinking would probably have kept you from typing on this rather complicated computer thing.


Um, no, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

A giant magical flying purple unicorn created the universe when he sneezed. Proove me wrong.

Also and important thing in science is that it is possible to falsify a claim. Can you show me how I could falsify god? Can you show me how I could falsify my unicorn?

Originally Posted by Megachihuahua
"Evolution did it" is a cop out.

No, none of them have any arguments against god, but since they're so smart, the burden of proof is on them.
__________________

Wei wu wei

Green faeries
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 26th August 2003, 05:36 PM
Ex-Christian

12 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Party: US-Libertarian Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 30th July 2003
Location: World heroin capital(Baltimore), Maryland
Posts: 1,815
Blessings: 91,307
Reps: 1,350 (power: 11)
Megachihuahua has disabled reputation
Originally Posted by Arikay
"Evolution did it" is not a cop out, because then the scientists go on to explain how evolution did it, and back it up with evidence.

Um, no, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

A giant magical flying purple unicorn created the universe when he sneezed. Proove me wrong.

Also and important thing in science is that it is possible to falsify a claim. Can you show me how I could falsify god? Can you show me how I could falsify my unicorn?
Creatonists have lots of evidence, you just deny it. I deny your evidence too.

I can prove your unicorn wrong, because as a carbon based life form, it would have to breath, so it couldn't sneeze.

Of course, if you want to believe that, be my guest; to the mental hospital.
__________________
I am the Sigless One.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 26th August 2003, 06:00 PM
Frumious Bandersnatch's Avatar
Contributor

65 Gender: Male Faith: Unitarian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 4th March 2003
Posts: 6,393
Blessings: 117,789
My Mood Amused
Reps: 19,183,710,574,649,584 (power: 19,183,710,574,664)
Frumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond repute
Frumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond reputeFrumious Bandersnatch has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Megachihuahua
It seems gentry's denial is mumbo-jumbo, and says it can't be true because science cannot accept god! It's like ants denying the existence of a footprint because they can't accept humans as the cause.
Using an ad hoc miracle when your theory is falsified is NOT science and this is what Gentry now does. Did you actually read any of the web page I linked or just the quote? Here is a bit more with some bolding added.

1) Do the rocks from which Gentry drew his samples represent the "primordial" basement rocks of the originally created Earth?
Gentry is a physicist, not a geologist. He doesn't follow accepted geologic reporting practice and consistently fails to provide the information that a third party would need to collect comparable samples for testing. For his research, Gentry utilized microscope thin sections of rocks from samples sent to him by others from various places around the world. Thus, he is unable to say how his samples fit in with the local or regional geological setting(s). He also does not provide descriptive information about the individual rock samples that make up his studies - i.e., the abundance and distribution of major, accessory, or trace minerals; the texture, crystal size and alteration features of the rocks; and the presence or absence of fractures and discontinuities.
Gentry does not acknowledge that the Precambrian time period represents fully 7/8 of the history of the Earth as determined by decades of intensive field and laboratory investigations by thousands of geologists. Consequently, he does not recognize the wide diversity of geologic terranes that came and went over that enormous time span. His claim that his samples represent "primordial" basement rocks is patently incorrect . In Gentry's model, any rock looking vaguely like a granite and carrying the label Precambrian is considered to be a "primordial" rock. True granites are themselves evidence of significant crustal recycling and elemental differentiation (see for example, Taylor and McLennan, 1996), and cannot be considered primordial. A little detective work by Wakefield (1988) showed that at least one set of rock samples studied by Gentry are not from granites at all, but were taken from a variety of younger Precambrian metamorphic rocks and pegmatite veins in the region around Bancroft, Ontario. Some of these rock units cut or overlie older, sedimentary and even fossil-bearing rocks.

Gentry provides no explanation for how polonium alone finds its way into biotite and fluorite, or why radiation damage haloes in these minerals are common in areas of known uranium enrichment, but rare where uranium abundance is low. Gentry's hypothesis would seem to suggest that there should be a uniform distribution of all polonium isotopes in primordial rocks, or at least no particular spatial association with uranium. Gentry (1974), himself, notes that haloes have not been found in meteorites or lunar samples, rocks known to be very low in uranium abundance. Lorence Collins (1997) has noted these and several other contradictory situations between the polonium halo hypothesis and observed geological relationships in the field.

Polonium haloes in mica are found only in granitic, or granitic-type rocks, and not in mica from adjacent rocks of other compositions

Polonium haloes are found only in rocks which contain myrmekite, a replacement mineral intergrowth - a clear indication that the rock is not "primordial."


2) Are the concentric haloes observed by Gentry actually caused by alpha particle damage to the host crystal structure?Going back to Gentry's early research (Gentry, 1968, 1971; Gentry, et al., 1973), it is apparent that the association of concentric colored haloes with polonium is actually speculative. Gentry adopts and expands on the work of Joly (1917) that polonium isotopes were the most likely cause of the features observed. Joly did most of his work with discoloration haloes in the first decade of the Twentieth Century, a time when the structure of the atom was just being discovered, and before the crystal structure of minerals had been unraveled. This was also the period when the nature of radioactivity was just being uncovered. Joly made the very speculative assumption that if alpha particles could travel 3-7 centimeters in air, then they would only travel 1/2000 of that distance in biotite mica. From this generalization, and without considering the variability in the density and the crystal structure of the host mica (or even the variable density of air), Joly attempted to correlate the radial size of the concentric ring haloes with the alpha particles of specific isotopes (he was first to suggest polonium). He also tried to develop an age dating technique based on the diameter of the halo features - the larger the halo, the longer the radiation had been affecting the host mineral grain. Henderson (1939) carried Joly's work further, developing a classification scheme for the different patterns of discoloration haloes he observed, and deriving hypotheses for how short-lived polonium could find its way into the host crystal structure.

In his research, Gentry followed Joly's approach of defining an idealized model based on the average distance traveled in air by alpha particles of different energy. He then measured concentric ring haloes in mica (or fluorite, or cordierite) to see which ones matched his model. Of course, the large assumption here is that his model is correct.

How can alpha particle emissions result in discrete colored rings? Gentry (1992) provides the explanation "that alpha particles do the most damage at the end of their paths." This would appear to be a reference to the "Bragg Effect", the phenomenon whereby charged particles lose energy during penetration of different media. When charged particles (a proton or an alpha particle) pass through matter, they lose energy primarily by ionizing the atoms of material being passed through. The amount of energy required to ionize an atom depends on the specific element involved. In general, the lower the energy of the impacting charged particle, the faster it loses energy. Another way of looking at this is - as the particle loses energy, it slows down, and as it slows down, it interacts more strongly with surrounding atoms, causing it to decelerate even more rapidly. Finally, the particle loses all of its kinetic energy and comes to rest, at which time it can capture electrons and become a neutral atom. The amount of energy loss - and thus disruption of the affected medium - is greatest at the end of the particle's path of travel (although energy will have been given up, and ionization of surrounding atoms will have occurred, along the entire path). For protons, with a single charge and relatively low mass, this effect is extremely pronounced, and is the basis for proton beam treatment of various tumors. Beams of high energy protons can be adjusted to have almost all of their energy loss (the Bragg Peak) occur within a small volume of cancerous tissue, with almost no energy deposition in the healthy tissue beyond. The effect is less dramatic for alpha particles with their larger mass and double charge. Also, energy loss is a statistical phenomenon; a spread of energies always results after a beam of monoenergetic charged particles has passed through a given thickness of an absorbing medium - known as energy straggling (Knoll, 1979). Gentry's own attempts to duplicate alpha particle damage in minerals using a helium ion beam illustrates these effects. In these experiments, the ion beam intensity was adjusted to produce a discoloration pattern in the irradiated mineral (the extent of the discoloration being then compared to the halo diameter associated with each alpha-decay energy). An ion beam irradiates an "area" and has luminosities (particles per beam cross section per unit time) many orders of magnitude higher than the "spherical" volumetric emission of alpha particles from radioactive centers in mineral grains. Short exposure to an ion beam can create damage patterns equivalent to millions of years of low-level natural alpha exposure. Gentry (1974) notes the problem of beam intensity required to achieve a specific level of discoloration. The pattern produced by Gentry through ion beam bombardment was a zone of discoloration, faintest near the source, and increasing in intensity up to a relatively sharp termination - exactly what would be predicted for the Bragg Effect in minerals. Gentry's ion-beam work, however, was not able to produce multiple bands or the sharply defined concentric ring structure of certain haloes, suggesting that such features must have another cause separate from alpha particle damage.

Gentry (1970, 1974), himself, notes a number of aspects about concentric haloes which cannot be explained by the alpha decay hypothesis. Dwarf and giant haloes cannot be reconciled with any known alpha decay energies. Gentry postulates that these anomalous size haloes represent new elements or new forms of alpha decay. Neither explanation seems likely given the current state of knowledge of radioactive elements (ICRP, 1983; Parrington, et al., 1996). Other haloes show "ghost" rings which don't correspond to any measured alpha decay energy, and which remain unexplained. Finally, there are "reversed coloration" haloes, supposed uranium haloes in which the gradation of color intensity in the circular band is opposite to, and the ring diameters offset from, those in a "normal" uranium pattern. Other exceptions to Gentry's energy vs. ring diameter model have been noted by Odom and Rink (1989) and Moazed et al. (1973). Gentry speculates on the cause(s) of some of these anomalous features, but provides no empirical data to support any explanation. Indeed, Gentry appears to be more willing to question the evidence provided by the physical samples than to question the validity of his model.

Perhaps the most damaging challenge to Gentry's hypothesis comes not from what has been observed, but from what is missing. Of the three major, naturally occurring radioactive elements, uranium, thorium, and potassium, two - uranium and thorium - are marked by decay series involving alpha particle emissions. Gentry's polonium haloes are attributed to alpha particle decay of the polonium isotopes Po-210, Po-214, and Po-218, all part of the uranium-238 decay chain. Thorium-232 decays to stable Lead-208 through a series of steps which include two additional polonium isotopes, Po-212 and Po-216. Thorium has an elemental abundance between three and four times that of uranium in the Earth's crust. Also, in areas of uranium enrichment, such as those from which Gentry's halo samples apparently have come, thorium is also enriched. These thorium decay series polonium isotopes have alpha decay energies well within the range documented for uranium-series polonium decay. Thus, polonium isotopes which result from the decay of naturally occurring thorium-232 should also produce characteristic haloes. In fact, according to Gentry's model, all polonium isotopes should be represented equally. However as Collins (1997) points out, Gentry has identified only halos for those isotopes of polonium associated with the decay of uranium-238; halos attributable to polonium-212 and polonium-216 are not found. Additionally, haloes attributable to the two polonium isotopes in the decay series of uranium-235 (Po-211 and Po-215) are also missing. Uranium-235 comprises 0.71% of naturally occurring uranium (uranium-238 makes up 99.3%).
If concentric rings haloes aren't caused by alpha particles, what causes them? Both Joly (1917) and Gentry (1992) discounted the possibility that beta particles may play a role in coloration changes within minerals; however, neither author gives a basis for this rejection beyond the erroneous statement that beta particle energies are too low to have any affect. High energy beta particles have the well documented ability to break molecular bonds. Combinations of alpha and beta decay particles, beta particles alone, or some completely non-radioactive process may be the cause of the observed mineral discoloration haloes.
It looks pretty clear that Gentry's polonium haloes are not the great evidence of an instant creation that they are sometimes made out to be.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 26th August 2003, 06:03 PM
Ex-Christian

12 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Party: US-Libertarian Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 30th July 2003
Location: World heroin capital(Baltimore), Maryland
Posts: 1,815
Blessings: 91,307
Reps: 1,350 (power: 11)
Megachihuahua has disabled reputation
Originally Posted by Frumious Bandersnatch
Using an ad hoc miracle when your theory is falsified is NOT science and this is what Gentry now does.
Darwin's cousin started eugenetics, your point?
__________________
I am the Sigless One.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to Creation & Evolution

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:28 PM.