History of the "Sign of the Cross"

CaliforniaJosiah · #91 4th September 2008, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA

There is no proof. I am only offering what is taught.

Ah. So, it is the faith of Orthodox Christians that Jesus taught this practice to the Apostles, just like it is the faith of Mormons that Jesus appointed Joseph Smith as His Apostle and founder of His Church. Got it. It's not what you posted, but I think I now understand your position. Forgive me if I respect you and your faith but regard the statement as baseless.

Thank you for the clarification....

Pax

- Josiah

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bbbbbbb · #92 4th September 2008, 11:35 AM

I think this should put the matter to rest. Either one does or does not have faith in the Church (depending on how you might define it) and its teachings. If you don't, then there is absolutely no evidence of any such practice as emanating from Christ through His apostles.

OrthodoxyUSA · #93 4th September 2008, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah

Ah. So, it is the faith of Orthodox Christians that Jesus taught this practice to the Apostles, just like it is the faith of Mormons that Jesus appointed Joseph Smith as His Apostle and founder of His Church. Got it. It's not what you posted, but I think I now understand your position. Forgive me if I respect you and your faith but regard the statement as baseless.

Thank you for the clarification....

Pax

- Josiah

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You are welcome to consider faith as baseless. But it's the Christian faith you are calling baseless. You might consider that.

You ask for proofs, I hope for your sake Christ doesn't ask the same of you.

Forgive me...

Mary of Bethany · #94 4th September 2008, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah

Ah. So, it is the faith of Orthodox Christians that Jesus taught this practice to the Apostles, just like it is the faith of Mormons that Jesus appointed Joseph Smith as His Apostle and founder of His Church. Got it. It's not what you posted, but I think I now understand your position. Forgive me if I respect you and your faith but regard the statement as baseless.

Thank you for the clarification....

Pax

- Josiah

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CJ,

I think it's a bit disingenuous for you to compare traditional Orthodox Christian teaching which, as OUSA showed, has been believed since very early on, with a heretical, non-Christian sect. I know you are trying to make a point about lack of proof, but there are many things about the Christian *Faith* that can't be proven. That does not equate Christianity with Mormonism.

Mary

CaliforniaJosiah · #95 4th September 2008, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mary of Bethany

CJ,

I think it's a bit disingenuous for you to compare traditional Orthodox Christian teaching which, as OUSA showed, has been believed since very early on, with a heretical, non-Christian sect. I know you are trying to make a point about lack of proof, but there are many things about the Christian *Faith* that can't be proven. That does not equate Christianity with Mormonism.

Mary

Oh, I stated and implied (and certainly believe) no such thing.

In Lutheranism, we have a profound respect and esteem for Tradition (the historic, ecumenical understanding of Scripture) and for tradition (customs and practices INCLUDING the sign of the Cross, which we practice). I hope I made that all abundantly clear in my early posts in this thread, and indeed elsewhere.

The exchange that my good friend and I had was over his statement that Jesus taught this particular practice of the Sign of the Cross (a point new to me, from my Catholic or Lutheran teachers, or from my admittedly limited readings of Church History). THAT (and only that) was what I was responding to.

My conclusion (potentially errant, to be sure) is that what our friend was expressing that it is a matter of faith among Orthodox that Jesus was the originator of this practice - there is no evidence of such but it is their faith. I'm 100% fine with that and I apprecaite having that insight from Orthodoxy (I always appreciate learning more about the EO since my knowledge is mostly from a Catholic and classic/reformational Protestant - plus LDS - standpoint, I'm pretty limited when we move into Orthodox or "evangelical" perspectives, and I am here at CF primarily to learn. I took his statement as one of historic fact but I think he probably meant it as a position of faith among his faith community. We certainly all have those.

This is the History forum; it's about history. Generally, such discussions require substantiation normally associated with the scholastic study of history. It might be a matter of faith that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree, it's another matter if such can be substantiated in a manner usual in historical discussions. And again, our friend framed his statement as historical fact, not an article of faith. But, as I noted, I now think that is what he meant.

I hope that clarifies.

Pax

- Josiah

PS While I AM aware that a few Christians harbor hatred toward Mormons and the LDS, it should be noted that most of us don't and that I've NEVER remotely implied or suggested such. They have articles of faith, too. Some of which they cannot substantiate, too.

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