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28th April 2007, 05:34 PM
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Reps: 62,872,008,933,257,656 (power: 62,872,008,933,270) | | Originally Posted by snoochface  Is Mary omniscient? Does she know your thoughts and your mind? Is she omnipresent? Is she there in the room with you when you are praying? How does Mary "hear" your prayers in order to act as intercessor for you?
MY DEAR SISTER,
MARY IS NOT GOD--SHE IS HIS MOTHER!
Mary--and the rest of the Saints and our Guardian Angel--hear our prayers the same way Jesus does--by the fact that "In God we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28) Given that the Holy Spirit fills all things, prayers get to where they are directed through the medium of His Being.
ephraim
__________________ Lo, i have gathered up all of my thoughts and cannot recall anything good before Thee . . .
except the fact that i know no other God than Thee.
--Saint Ephraim the Syrian
LORD JESUS CHRIST, HUMBLE LAMB OF GOD, have mercy on me, an arrogant sinner!
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28th April 2007, 05:37 PM
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Reps: 62,872,008,933,257,656 (power: 62,872,008,933,270) | | Originally Posted by snoochface I agree with everything twistedsketch said.
This question is likely to cause debate because no one but Catholics and perhaps Anglicans believe that Mary ascended into heaven and should be prayed to. You'd probably be better off posting your question in the Catholic forum, OBOB.
MY DEAR SISTER,
The majority of the world's Christians--Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and many Protestants--believe in the intercessory powers of Mary and the Saints. Disbelievers are a distinct minority in this regard. The OP's original question was valid and in a valid Forum--i fail to see the problem.
ephraim
__________________ Lo, i have gathered up all of my thoughts and cannot recall anything good before Thee . . .
except the fact that i know no other God than Thee.
--Saint Ephraim the Syrian
LORD JESUS CHRIST, HUMBLE LAMB OF GOD, have mercy on me, an arrogant sinner!
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28th April 2007, 07:38 PM
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Reps: 883,099,189,110,672,256 (power: 883,099,189,110,707) | | Originally Posted by ephraimanesti MY DEAR SISTER,
MARY IS NOT GOD--SHE IS HIS MOTHER!
Mary--and the rest of the Saints and our Guardian Angel--hear our prayers the same way Jesus does--by the fact that "In God we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28) Given that the Holy Spirit fills all things, prayers get to where they are directed through the medium of His Being.
ephraim
Thus she is elevated to "goddess" level by believers that claim this. The writers of the New Testament were not half as Marian as the Catholic and Orthodox today.
Jesus is God, yes. That makes Him much, much greater than Mary. This "veneration" of saints ought to go to Him, rather than them. That's the way they would have insisted on in their lifetimes, Mary included.
__________________
Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
- Proverbs 30:5-6
Sovereignty is not racism. |
29th April 2007, 02:10 AM
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Reps: 62,872,008,933,257,656 (power: 62,872,008,933,270) | | Originally Posted by twistedsketch Thus she is elevated to "goddess" level by believers that claim this. The writers of the New Testament were not half as Marian as the Catholic and Orthodox today.
"Elevated to 'goddess' level" is perhaps a poor description of the love, respect, and esteem Christians hold for God's mother. Judgment without knowledge could perhaps best be called prejudice.
Originally Posted by twistedsketch Jesus is God, yes. That makes Him much, much greater than Mary. This "veneration" of saints ought to go to Him, rather than them. That's the way they would have insisted on in their lifetimes, Mary included.
No one would question that Jesus is "much, much greater than Mary." For this reason, WORSHIP goes to God and VENERATION goes to Mary and the other Saints. If we merely venerated God, we would not be Christians. WORSHIP GOES TO GOD--VENERATION GOES TO HIS SERVANTS. i honest don't see what is confusing about that.
WORSHIP--"Homage or reverence paid to a deity."
VENERATE--"Regard with deep respect; to revere on account of sanctity."
God's servants are venerated because they have provided extrene abd acceptable worshipful service to God, and for no other reason. Accolades to the servant redound to the Master!
Our Lord's first miracle--in Cana--was performed at the request of his mother. The pattern continues as we speak.
IN CHRIST,
ephraim
__________________ Lo, i have gathered up all of my thoughts and cannot recall anything good before Thee . . .
except the fact that i know no other God than Thee.
--Saint Ephraim the Syrian
LORD JESUS CHRIST, HUMBLE LAMB OF GOD, have mercy on me, an arrogant sinner!
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29th April 2007, 01:54 PM
| | Born Imperishable
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Reps: 883,099,189,110,672,256 (power: 883,099,189,110,707) | | Originally Posted by ephraimanesti "Elevated to 'goddess' level" is perhaps a poor description of the love, respect, and esteem Christians hold for God's mother. Judgment without knowledge could perhaps best be called prejudice.
No one would question that Jesus is "much, much greater than Mary." For this reason, WORSHIP goes to God and VENERATION goes to Mary and the other Saints. If we merely venerated God, we would not be Christians. WORSHIP GOES TO GOD--VENERATION GOES TO HIS SERVANTS. i honest don't see what is confusing about that.
WORSHIP--"Homage or reverence paid to a deity."
VENERATE--"Regard with deep respect; to revere on account of sanctity."
God's servants are venerated because they have provided extrene abd acceptable worshipful service to God, and for no other reason.
Protestants think well of the saints too, but praying to them is taking it too far (even if it is asking them to pray for you, the method by which you contact them is prayer, unlike when someone walks up to a fellow believer and asks for prayer). The Hail Mary has been perverted from the message the angel gave her into praise and worship by men. Originally Posted by ephraimanesti Accolades to the servant redound to the Master!
I don't believe this at all.
"At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'" - Rev 19:10 Originally Posted by ephraimanesti Our Lord's first miracle--in Cana--was performed at the request of his mother. The pattern continues as we speak.
So you're saying that all His miracles since, even to this day, are because Mary wanted them, rather than the Father?
__________________
Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
- Proverbs 30:5-6
Sovereignty is not racism. |
29th April 2007, 06:46 PM
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Reps: 62,872,008,933,257,656 (power: 62,872,008,933,270) | | Originally Posted by twistedsketch Protestants think well of the saints too, but praying to them is taking it too far (even if it is asking them to pray for you, the method by which you contact them is prayer, unlike when someone walks up to a fellow believer and asks for prayer). The Hail Mary has been perverted from the message the angel gave her into praise and worship by men.
i see nothing "perverted" about giving due praise and veneration--NOT WORSHIP--to God's mother without whose "Let it be unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38) the sin of Eve's disobedience could not have been undone--nor our Savior Jesus Christ take flesh.
Originally Posted by twistedsketch I don't believe this at all. Praise be to God that reality remains reality inspite of our prejudices and disbelief!
Originally Posted by twistedsketch "At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'" - Rev 19:10
Why do you insist on continuing with this "worship" silliness. No Christian would ever "worship" Mary or any of the other Saints. These, our elder brothers and sisters, are VENERATED NOT WORSHIPPED.
Originally Posted by twistedsketch So you're saying that all His miracles since, even to this day, are because Mary wanted them, rather than the Father?
Of course not! But there have been a bunch of miracles in my life due to the intercessions of Mary and other Saints.
The denial of the existence of something one does not understand and does not care to honestly investigate is kind of like a kid standing outside a Candy Store criticizing the taste of the sweets he glimpses from a distance through the window.
A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim
__________________ Lo, i have gathered up all of my thoughts and cannot recall anything good before Thee . . .
except the fact that i know no other God than Thee.
--Saint Ephraim the Syrian
LORD JESUS CHRIST, HUMBLE LAMB OF GOD, have mercy on me, an arrogant sinner!
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29th April 2007, 09:57 PM
| | Born Imperishable
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Reps: 883,099,189,110,672,256 (power: 883,099,189,110,707) | | Originally Posted by ephraimanesti i see nothing "perverted" about giving due praise and veneration--NOT WORSHIP--to God's mother without whose "Let it be unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38) the sin of Eve's disobedience could not have been undone--nor our Savior Jesus Christ take flesh.
Actually, God could have just found someone else who was a virgin, faithful, and from the line of David. The very thing that makes Mary worth remembering is that she chose obedience.
And allow me to clarify. I have actually talked with a Catholic who believes that the Holy Spirit comes through Mary, rather than being sent by the Father and Son according to John 14:16-17. This is a serious aberration. And how did she come to this conclusion? Through the abuse of the Hail Mary. Originally Posted by ephraimanesti Why do you insist on continuing with this "worship" silliness. No Christian would ever "worship" Mary or any of the other Saints. These, our elder brothers and sisters, are VENERATED NOT WORSHIPPED.
Yet, you pray those prayers, and sing those songs. No one is worthy of that level of praise except God. Originally Posted by ephraimanesti Of course not! But there have been a bunch of miracles in my life due to the intercessions of Mary and other Saints.
But according to the Bible, miracles are God's idea. Anything they would have prayed for is something that He would have already begun to do, since He knows every thought before it happens.
__________________
Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
- Proverbs 30:5-6
Sovereignty is not racism. |
30th April 2007, 02:37 PM
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Reps: 62,872,008,933,257,656 (power: 62,872,008,933,270) | | Originally Posted by twistedsketch Actually, God could have just found someone else who was a virgin, faithful, and from the line of David. The very thing that makes Mary worth remembering is that she chose obedience.
God also could have created Eve without freewill so that she would not have listened to the serpent and sinned. Given that God will not violate our freewill, i don't think i can be as certain as you seem to be that God would have continued to "shop around" for an eartly mother for His Son had Mary chosen to refuse obedience to His will.
Anyway, the point is--she willingly DID what she did in humble submission to God's will, and thus has earned both a place of honor before the Father's Throne and veneration in the hearts of all Christians.
Originally Posted by twistedsketch And allow me to clarify. I have actually talked with a Catholic who believes that the Holy Spirit comes through Mary, rather than being sent by the Father and Son according to John 14:16-17. This is a serious aberration. And how did she come to this conclusion? Through the abuse of the Hail Mary.
All what you state "clarifies" is that the person you talked to is way off the track--not understanding the teachings of the Catholic Church on the subject at hand. There are those unfortunates who get off track, but this has nothing to do with Catholic or Orthodox Church teachings or practices which are as i have already outlined them.
On the other hand, i have heard of Christians who honestly believe that "THE DA VINCI CODE" is a "ground-breaking work of scholarly non-fiction" and even have study groups going in their homes to study this new "spiritual" guidebook and avail themselves of the "truths" it contains. In both your example and mine, exceptions prove the rule in that they are aberations. If you want to know and understand Church teachings on Mary and the Saints, go to the authoritive sources, not to the extremists who have gone off on their own tangents and are outside the pale of true Christian worship.
Originally Posted by twistedsketch Yet, you pray those prayers, and sing those songs. No one is worthy of that level of praise except God.
To the contrary, the level of veneration accorded to Mary and the other Saints is far below the level of worship and praise given to the Blessed Trinity--both in quantity and in quality--but still well within the bounds of what they deserve for the service they have provided--and continue to provide--to God on our behalf.
Originally Posted by twistedsketch But according to the Bible, miracles are God's idea. Anything they would have prayed for is something that He would have already begun to do, since He knows every thought before it happens.
If what you are saying is literally true as you state it, what is the point of intercessory prayer between us here below? The Bible enjoins us in many places to pray for one another--what is the point of that if what you say is true and God is going to provide what we are asking for whether or not we ask for it or request our brothers and sisters to pray on our behalf? Personally, i would question whether our Lord would have acted to turn the water into wine at Cana if His mother hadn't asked Him to.
Scripture states, "THE PRAYER OF A RIGHTEOUS MAN AVAILS MUCH." (James 5:16) The benefit of asking for intercessory prayer from Mary or another of the Saints is that they have a proven exemplary record of righteousness, holiness, and pleasing God and thus we can be well assured that their prayers on our behalf will be heard. As for the prayers of Pastors, Televangelists, and our next-door neighbor--who knows? Things are often not what they seem to be (to say the least!)--Spiritually speaking
i think the OP's original question has probably been answered by now, so perhaps we shouldn't continue hijacking her thread. If you have a serious need to debate this question, perhaps you might try the General Theology Forum.
A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim
__________________ Lo, i have gathered up all of my thoughts and cannot recall anything good before Thee . . .
except the fact that i know no other God than Thee.
--Saint Ephraim the Syrian
LORD JESUS CHRIST, HUMBLE LAMB OF GOD, have mercy on me, an arrogant sinner!
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30th April 2007, 02:44 PM
|  | Meet the new boss -- same as the old boss.
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Reps: 76,121,877,954,547,664 (power: 76,121,877,954,569) | | Originally Posted by ephraimanesti i think the OP's original question has probably been answered by now, so perhaps we shouldn't continue hijacking her thread. If you have a serious need to debate this question, perhaps you might try the General Theology Forum.
Heh, that was my point a long time ago...
Originally Posted by snoochface This question is likely to cause debate because no one but Catholics and perhaps Anglicans believe that Mary ascended into heaven and should be prayed to. You'd probably be better off posting your question in the Catholic forum, OBOB.
__________________
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30th April 2007, 03:03 PM
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Reps: 62,872,008,933,257,656 (power: 62,872,008,933,270) | | Originally Posted by snoochface Heh, that was my point a long time ago... Oh,
WHATEVER! 
MY BAD!
Now are you happy?
ephraim
__________________ Lo, i have gathered up all of my thoughts and cannot recall anything good before Thee . . .
except the fact that i know no other God than Thee.
--Saint Ephraim the Syrian
LORD JESUS CHRIST, HUMBLE LAMB OF GOD, have mercy on me, an arrogant sinner!
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