The conservative agenda

EvolvEarth · #11 19th August 2003, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by cbk

Great quote, but I disagree. So, prove me wrong.... Since it ALWAYS stands in the way of tolerance then you can give me the ignorance that goes along with these following acts of intolerance.

Let's see...

1)Christians who will not tolerate homosexual leaders in the church.

Although there ARE homosexual leads in the church, at least the church near me where my gay friend was invited to. Although, you just did show that ignorance does come into the way of tolerance.

2)Christians who would not tolerate Nazi Germany.

This actually seems to be divided. Christians today wouldn't tolerant it, however, since the Nazis WERE Christian, since Hitler was Christian, and since the Catholic church is a Christian sect. that made a deal with Hitler on not getting in the way of his plans seems to shoe that there has been a disagreement among the Christians than do and don't tolerate Nazi Germany. Those Christians were intolerant of Jews, which was because of ignorance, and then the Christians changed over time

3)Chrisitians who will not tolerate acts of terrorists against the mainland.

Yet the Christians allowed the people from Israel to take land from the Palestinians, and the spend millions of money supporting Israel to kill innocent Palestinians to take more land from them. Both sides are killing innocent people, and the Christians are supporting one side of the killing of innocent people. Seems like the Christians are supporting terrorism.

4)Christians who will not tolerate other Christians who will not repent of sin.

But there are Christians tolerate sinful behavior as long as they do repent. Basically, as long as you repent, you can keep on with that sinful behavior. Sounds fun!

These are the acts of intolerance. Now, point by point, where is the ignorance?

Seems like many Christians are divided on the issue.

cbk · #12 19th August 2003, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by EvolvEarth

Let's see...

Although there ARE homosexual leads in the church, at least the church near me where my gay friend was invited to. Although, you just did show that ignorance does come into the way of tolerance.

This actually seems to be divided. Christians today wouldn't tolerant it, however, since the Nazis WERE Christian, since Hitler was Christian, and since the Catholic church is a Christian sect. that made a deal with Hitler on not getting in the way of his plans seems to shoe that there has been a disagreement among the Christians than do and don't tolerate Nazi Germany. Those Christians were intolerant of Jews, which was because of ignorance, and then the Christians changed over time

Yet the Christians allowed the people from Israel to take land from the Palestinians, and the spend millions of money supporting Israel to kill innocent Palestinians to take more land from them. Both sides are killing innocent people, and the Christians are supporting one side of the killing of innocent people. Seems like the Christians are supporting terrorism.

But there are Christians tolerate sinful behavior as long as they do repent. Basically, as long as you repent, you can keep on with that sinful behavior. Sounds fun!

Seems like many Christians are divided on the issue.

1) You have not defined on what basis the Christians WHO ARE AGAINST unrepentant, homosexual leaders are doing so based upon ignorance. I am against homosexual leaders based upon the teachings of the Bible -- NOW, how is this intolerance based upon ignorance rather than obedience to sound doctrine???

2) Back to WWII... How were the Christians WHO WERE WILLING to fight the Germans expressing their intolerance because of ignorance rather than the desire to protect its ally, England?

3) If ignorance leads to intolerance, how do Christians WHO ARE WILLING to fight these terrorists who attack America doing so out of ignorance, rather than the desire to destroy an aggressive evil. I am for attacking terrorist by my intolerance, but how is this done out of ignorance.

4) You are unresponsive. I claim that I do not tolerate those who are unwilling to repent of their sins. How is this intolerance motivated by ignorance and not be obedience to sound doctrine?

Fill in the ignorance portion of these four intolerances based upon the WILLING Christians that share the same intolerances that I express for each of these four. How is this a display of ignorance? Ignorance from what standard?

revolutio · #13 19th August 2003, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by cbk

Great quote, but I disagree. So, prove me wrong.... Since it ALWAYS stands in the way of tolerance then you can give me the ignorance that goes along with these following acts of intolerance.

1)Christians who will not tolerate homosexual leaders in the church.

2)Christians who would not tolerate Nazi Germany.

3)Chrisitians who will not tolerate acts of terrorists against the mainland.

4)Christians who will not tolerate other Christians who will not repent of sin.

These are the acts of intolerance. Now, point by point, where is the ignorance?

1. Nor would most other conservative religious groups.

2. Nazi Germany was Christian.

3. Muslims won't either, but everyone has a different definition of terrorist.

4. I am sure those Christians don't tolerate you either.

I wasn't try to say you are ignorant I am just making comments.

Yitzchak · #14 19th August 2003, 08:32 PM

Clearly, this is a complicated issue. First, how does one define conservative?? Myself I like to keep it simple. I think there are really very few true conservatives. A much larger group who have aligned themselves with conservatives selectively and don't agree 100% with every dogma of conservatism. And some who are conservative about finances but not politics, or morality but not hairstyles.
I am not saying that the term is meaningless or that there is not such a thing as a conservative. But it is not as simple as "sound-bites" make it seem at times.

Yitzchak · #15 19th August 2003, 08:44 PM

Also, seeing a conspiracy theory in something is problematic from the standpoint that if it is really a conspiracy, then those involved are not likely to admit it and likely depend on a larger mass of ignorant followers to carry out their ends under pretext of different reasons.
Also one wonders how someone became privy to this knowledge about this grand conspiracy.
I am not saying that conspiracies do not exist at times. However it is not very practical for me to wildly speculate about what conspiracy is behind the latest thing which I don't like or feel threatened by.
I would hope that organizations and groups (espeacially if they are political) would have some sort of "agenda" or set of goals and methods for acheiving those goals. Otherwise who would be foolish enough to join a group that is ineffective and goes in random directions accomplishing nothing??
Having an evil agenda or an ultra secret conspiracy is quite different from having a organized plan to acheive certain goals.
Whenever I see stated goals not lining up with actions, whether an individual or a group, I am prone to ask what is the real deal. But that does not lead me to wildly speculate as to what evil ultra secret covert agendas are being implemented.
Holding together a coalition of fallable humans who all have slightly different goals is difficult at best. Be thankful that the groups whose agendas you are against have so much division within their ranks. Because a totally disciplined group would probably make huge gains in our fragmented soceity.

EvolvEarth · #16 19th August 2003, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Yitzchak

Clearly, this is a complicated issue. First, how does one define conservative?? Myself I like to keep it simple. I think there are really very few true conservatives. A much larger group who have aligned themselves with conservatives selectively and don't agree 100% with every dogma of conservatism. And some who are conservative about finances but not politics, or morality but not hairstyles.
I am not saying that the term is meaningless or that there is not such a thing as a conservative. But it is not as simple as "sound-bites" make it seem at times.

This thread wasn't really an attack on conservatives, it was more about showing how ridiculous it is to claim that conservatives have an evil agenda. It really was to show how stupid it was to claim that something that disagrees with you has an evil agenda.

cbk · #17 19th August 2003, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by revolutio

1. Nor would most other conservative religious groups.

2. Nazi Germany was Christian.

3. Muslims won't either, but everyone has a different definition of terrorist.

4. I am sure those Christians don't tolerate you either.

I wasn't try to say you are ignorant I am just making comments.

I appreciate it... But my response was for evolearth who claims that ignorance leads to intolerance. Of this I disgree. It could be that in many instances it is living according to sound scriptural doctrine leads to intolerance to sin and sometimes to those who boldly take part in said sins and sometimes to those who boldly attempt to change the set spiritual laws.

Yitzchak · #18 19th August 2003, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by EvolvEarth

This thread wasn't really an attack on conservatives, it was more about showing how ridiculous it is to claim that conservatives have an evil agenda. It really was to show how stupid it was to claim that something that disagrees with you has an evil agenda.

I understood that and am agreeing with you for the most part. Although I would not rule out the possibility of that ever happening.
There is a good reason for the seperation of powers employed by the founders of the United States. History does show that groups given too much power with no system of checks and balnces do often go to crazy and destructive extremes.
Myself I am glad there is a diversity in that sense even among conservatives.

EvolvEarth · #19 19th August 2003, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by cbk

1) You have not defined on what basis the Christians WHO ARE AGAINST unrepentant, homosexual leaders are doing so based upon ignorance. I am against homosexual leaders based upon the teachings of the Bible -- NOW, how is this intolerance based upon ignorance rather than obedience to sound doctrine???

Let's go through this again.

2) Back to WWII... How were the Christians WHO WERE WILLING to fight the Germans expressing their intolerance because of ignorance rather than the desire to protect its ally, England?

You have it the other way around. It was the Christian Nazis who were intolerant with Jews were the ones that were ignorant.

3) If ignorance leads to intolerance, how do Christians WHO ARE WILLING to fight these terrorists who attack America doing so out of ignorance, rather than the desire to destroy an aggressive evil. I am for attacking terrorist by my intolerance, but how is this done out of ignorance.

It's funny how some Christians who say they're against terrorism SUPPORT terrorism by giving money Israel to fight against the Palestinians. Hypocrisy?

4) You are unresponsive. I claim that I do not tolerate those who are unwilling to repent of their sins. How is this intolerance motivated by ignorance and not be obedience to sound doctrine?

Perhaps you didn't understand when I said that Christians are intolerant because of ignorance. I'm talking about intolerance such as intolerance for homosexuality, blacks, women rights, et cetera. I wasn't talking about the kind of intolerance you're talking about. I guess I really should have spelled what I meant out in big letters so you could understand.

Fill in the ignorance portion of these four intolerances based upon the WILLING Christians that share the same intolerances that I express for each of these four. How is this a display of ignorance? Ignorance from what standard?

As I mentioned earlier, I wasn't talking about that kind of intolerance. I was talking about intolerance based on rights. What you mentioned were intolerance against people that infringe on rights. That's not what I was alluding to.

EvolvEarth · #20 19th August 2003, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Yitzchak

I understood that and am agreeing with you for the most part. Although I would not rule out the possibility of that ever happening.
There is a good reason for the seperation of powers employed by the founders of the United States. History does show that groups given too much power with no system of checks and balnces do often go to crazy and destructive extremes.
Myself I am glad there is a diversity in that sense even among conservatives.

One of my favorite teachers, a government teacher, actually, is a conservative. He was a great, funny guy. The sad part is that the conservatives that do have power in this country really don't care about human rights and the environment. The sad part is, it seems like the democrats are going the way of the republicans.