A challenge, to a people who use their intellect.

mo.mentum · #1 9th August 2003, 11:22 PM

Ok, first of all. All of you who call themselves 'theistic evolutionists' shoudl be ashamed. Why? Because you're compromising your faith to make "scientific" facts fit with your creed.

If you only but knew how unscientific the Theory of Evolution is. I challenge any evolutionist, secular or theist to show me proof of this. With the help of God Almighty, my aim is to show you that SCIENCE PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD, without having to accept fairy tales like Evolution, and Social Darwinism. (which combined, have brought nothing but misery and hate to mankind)

Humanity has existed for a long time without science, and relied on superstitious beliefs regarding the Universe and God. The first scientists, in the proper sense of the word, were the Muslims the 9th->14th century AD. Their strong belief in the One God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus drove them to explore God's creation in hopes of understanding him more. That knowledge was then transmitted to the Europeans during the Renaissance and the Enlightenment in the 16th and 17th century. (check any history book)

However due to social stresses and changing economic conditions...science, and every other sphere of life, were seperated from the Church, this unfortunetly lead to people believing that science cannot be reconciled with religion. Whereas our brothers in faith, the Muslims were able to marry science and religion to actually prove that God is real. And that the only way to know God is through reason. Blind faith is not acceptable.

So keeping this in mind. Let's talk! Why do you think we've evolved? If God is the ultimate perfection and He has created everything, and He sustains everything at every moment in time and space, why would he make His creation get better with time when it is obviously DESIGNED to do its purpose from the beginning.

I have many proofs and ideas to share and am anxious to hear from the rest of your beautiful minds.

Peace unto you.
M.

platzapS · #2 10th August 2003, 01:42 PM

Ok, first of all. All of you who call themselves 'theistic evolutionists' shoudl be ashamed. Why? Because you're compromising your faith to make "scientific" facts fit with your creed.

I am a theistic evolutionist. I am not compromising my religion. The Apostle's Creed doesn't say that you must believe in a literal version of Genesis.

If you only but knew how unscientific the Theory of Evolution is. I challenge any evolutionist, secular or theist to show me proof of this. With the help of God Almighty, my aim is to show you that SCIENCE PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD, without having to accept fairy tales like Evolution, and Social Darwinism. (which combined, have brought nothing but misery and hate to mankind)

The validity of evolution is disucussed on dozens of threads here. If you have evidence against evolution, my friends here would love to discuss it with you. Science is not meant to prove the existence of God, or other supernatural phenomena. Science is only meant to discover truths about the physical universe. Theistic evolutionists may or may not support a "survival of the fittest" outlook on society, but all accept biological evolution.

The acceptence of evolution has not brought any more misery and hate to this world than Christianity has (Crusades, Inquistion...). Does that mean Christianity is wrong? No, it means that some people have used a perversed definition of it to justify bad things. The same thing happens with evolution. All scientific theories are morally neutral.

So keeping this in mind. Let's talk! Why do you think we've evolved? If God is the ultimate perfection and He has created everything, and He sustains everything at every moment in time and space, why would he make His creation get better with time when it is obviously DESIGNED to do its purpose from the beginning.

I think we have evolved because the most current theories in science point to this fact. The true religion (IMO), Christianity, will always "fit" with true science (evolution).

troodon · #3 10th August 2003, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by mo.mentum

Ok, first of all. All of you who call themselves 'theistic evolutionists' shoudl be ashamed. Why? Because you're compromising your faith to make "scientific" facts fit with your creed.

My faith is not compromised whatsoever because of evolution. It is in fact strengthened enormously by the fact that my idea of how God created actually fits the evidence.

If you only but knew how unscientific the Theory of Evolution is.

This shows you have done no research into the field at all. If you would see the time and effort placed into meticulously catagorizing fossils, measuring bone lengths, looking at derived characteristics, and then putting all this together in a cladistic analysis, you would stop calling it unscientific.

I challenge any evolutionist, secular or theist to show me proof of this.

Show you proof of what?

With the help of God Almighty, my aim is to show you that SCIENCE PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

We all already believe in God. If you feel like preaching to the heathen masses

, there's a non-Christians allowed forum. Go there.

without having to accept fairy tales like Evolution, and Social Darwinism. (which combined, have brought nothing but misery and hate to mankind)

How would the misery Social Darwinism (Biological evolution has brought civilized man no misery, except the occasional misguided Creationist who realizes evolution happens) have anything to do with the validity of evolutionary theory? Tell me. How would 19th century business moguls using unfair tactics to force people out of business disprove the fact that we share a common ancestor with apes? How would mass genocide (assuming social darwinism was its cause, which it wasn't) disprove the fact that birds are very highly derived dinosaurs?

However due to social stresses and changing economic conditions...science, and every other sphere of life, were seperated from the Church

A global flood was falsified back when science and religion were still "married".

this unfortunetly lead to people believing that science cannot be reconciled with religion.

Funny, isn't that what your second sentence was trying to say?

Whereas our brothers in faith, the Muslims were able to marry science and religion to actually prove that God is real. And that the only way to know God is through reason. Blind faith is not acceptable.

Yes, and look at all the great scientific advances that have come out of the Islamic world in the last 150 years. The record player, the lightbulb, the radio, the combustable engine, nuclear fission, jet and stealth technology, satellites, laser guided munitions, television, and.... oh wait.... nothing has come out of the Islamic world in the last 150 years. And you want to adopt their approach to science?

So keeping this in mind. Let's talk! Why do you think we've evolved?

Because all other theories regarding life's diversification have been falsified.

If God is the ultimate perfection and He has created everything, and He sustains everything at every moment in time and space, why would he make His creation get better with time when it is obviously DESIGNED to do its purpose from the beginning.

If God is the ultimate perfection, why would he riddle the genomes of his creations with pseudo-genes and non-functional genes? But, in an answer to your question, I like to think that God wanted us to have a great history of life on earth for us to study and unravel.

mo.mentum · #4 10th August 2003, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by platzapS

The acceptence of evolution has not brought any more misery and hate to this world than Christianity has (Crusades, Inquistion...). Does that mean Christianity is wrong? No, it means that some people have used a perversed definition of it to justify bad things. The same thing happens with evolution. All scientific theories are morally neutral.

Not true. The basis of Nazism and Facism is evolution. Read up on it. The theory itself is neutral, but a belief in it leads people to think of themselves as superior, or that their race is meant to dominate all others. The British used it as justification for an ever expanding empire. The French used it in the "Civilizing Missions". The Nazis wiped out entire groups because they thought they were inferior. Fascism wants to do away with all those who are different because they are not "elite". Even Communism has evolutionary thinking behind it. Karl Marx was an avid admirer of Darwin. He dedicated "Das Kapital" to Darwin, as he saw the struggle of the proletariat against the capitalist as a survival of the fittest kind of thing.

mo.mentum · #5 10th August 2003, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by troodon

A global flood was falsified back when science and religion were still "married".

Funny, isn't that what your second sentence was trying to say?

Yes, and look at all the great scientific advances that have come out of the Islamic world in the last 150 years. The record player, the lightbulb, the radio, the combustable engine, nuclear fission, jet and stealth technology, satellites, laser guided munitions, television, and.... oh wait.... nothing has come out of the Islamic world in the last 150 years. And you want to adopt their approach to science?

Don't be a bigot

First off, the flood doesn't necessarily imply "global". Just like all punishments were brought to bear on a certain nation. (Sodom through Lot, Pharoh through Moses), the people of Noah were punished by a flood, not all of Earth. But it could interpreted both ways.

As for Islam, DUH! DUH! DUH! Islam has been dormant for the last 300 years. You honestly think Islam is what is being practiced today? Come on, read up on history. You are right, nothing of value has come out of the Islamic world in the last 150 even 300 years, but look at its scientific history from the 7th to 15th century and you will change your mind. All I'm saying is that for almost a millenia, Muslim scientists were driven to explore the physical world as a manifestation of God's perfect creation that needs to be understood to understand God's attributes, since He cannot be comprehended directly.

Anyway, look up their history of science, i myself was amazed

It's important to give credit where credit is due. Westen science has been at the forefront for the last 400 years or so, but before that it was the Arabs, and before them the Greeks. Knowledge is not exclusive, it is passed down. The only reason we had a Renaissance in Europe it's thanks to exchanges of ideas with the Muslim empire that was present in Spain for 700 years until 1492.

Originally Posted by troodon

If God is the ultimate perfection, why would he riddle the genomes of his creations with pseudo-genes and non-functional genes? But, in an answer to your question, I like to think that God wanted us to have a great history of life on earth for us to study and unravel.

Aaah! You bring a good point, and there's an answer to this that is very simple. All this "garbage DNA" is turning out to be useful or just deactived. If you've done any computer programming, you could see how this is logical. We are a computer programmed written in DNA code. Since all life is using that same code, not all of it applies to everyone. So some of it will be disabled or active. Logic, yes yes?

All I'm trying to get at really is that God is limitless and his wisdom and power are expressed through His creation. He is in the details. The physical world was spread about for us to explore and wonder at his might.

sfs · #6 10th August 2003, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by mo.mentum

Ok, first of all. All of you who call themselves 'theistic evolutionists' shoudl be ashamed. Why? Because you're compromising your faith to make "scientific" facts fit with your creed.

I like my faith to reflect reality. That means it has to be consistent with evolution.

If you only but knew how unscientific the Theory of Evolution is.

I know very well how scienntific the theory of evolution is, since I use it to do science every day. Evolution is the only explanation available for a vast range of biological data, including the data in my own field, human genetics. Since that's the case, it would be kind of silly of me to pretend that it's invalid.

mo.mentum · #7 11th August 2003, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by sfs

Evolution is the only explanation available for a vast range of biological data, including the data in my own field, human genetics. Since that's the case, it would be kind of silly of me to pretend that it's invalid.

Oh? I always wanted a professional to answer this question for me. Well then, if Evilution is the only available explanation, it must have way to explain the sperm cell.

Let's examine it shall we?

First of all, the sperm is produced in your testicles along an assembly line about 500m long. Each component of the sperm are brought together and built. Briefly, these consist of the tail, the engine, the head.

The tail is a perfect locomotive organelle for the environment needed, it can provide the sperm with speeds the equivalent of a speed boat.

The engine is designed to run on fructose which, oh my God, happens to be present in the seminal fluids.

The head has 2 layers of armor, and a sack of enzymes to help it borrow into the egg cell.

Each layer of armor is used up at progressive stages as it borrows, revealing the enzymes beneath when the time is right. Eventually, the DNA cargo within is also exposed after the layers of armor are worn off.

Also, the tail suddenly breaks off. If it didn't, the constant motion would destroy the egg cell internally.

Let's not forget that the environment the sperm are released into is highly acidic and hostile. Yet the seminal fluid ejected with them contains a base solution to counter this.

To track the egg, the sperms have chemical sensors that detect hormones released by the egg.

Despite the fact that no sperm, in the entire history of sperm had the opportunity to visit this environment, get back into the male body and report what it saw.

If this system was not fully functional from day 1, then no species would have procreated. There is no trial and error, there is no slow development.

How did our testicles learn how to build the sperm's armor, and it's engine and to make it run on fructose.

These are serious questions that cannot be answered with genetics. But if you can, please do!

I presented a brief outline of the complexity of this process. But every other function in our bodies or any other biological system is just as complex yet harmonious, and if any part were to be removed, the whole system would break apart.

troodon · #8 11th August 2003, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by mo.mentum

The theory itself is neutral, but a belief in it leads people to think of themselves as superior, or that their race is meant to dominate all others.

The exact same could be said of special creation, why do you think Africans were treaded as sub-human prior to the publishing of Origin of Species? Also, common descent can be used as a very nice argument against hate (check these song lyrics. Also, since you agree that evolution's possible psychological effect on people has no bearing on its validity, why are you bringing it up?

The British used it as justification for an ever expanding empire.

The British empire was had almost attained its farthest extent by the time Origin had been published.

Don't be a bigot

I hope that smilie indicates a joke

First off, the flood doesn't necessarily imply "global". Just like all punishments were brought to bear on a certain nation. (Sodom through Lot, Pharoh through Moses), the people of Noah were punished by a flood, not all of Earth. But it could interpreted both ways.

Well, a global flood is used as a YEC excuse for the fossil record (as poor as it may be of an excuse

). To make it un-global is to take away any YEC responce to the world's geology, which is something I'm guessing (I could be wrong) you don't want. I agree that the story of Noah is based on a local flood; although I doubt God had anything to do with said flood.

[quote]As for Islam, DUH! DUH! DUH! Islam has been dormant for the last 300 years.... you are right, nothing of value has come out of the Islamic world in the last 150 even 300 years[quote] Your argument was that science including God benefitted the science of Islam. I was pointing out that since God was 'taken out of science' (which I assume you would place around the year 1859) the Western world has made fantastic strides in science whereas the Islamic world has been left in the dust.

You honestly think Islam is what is being practiced today?

Umm... yes I would say that the world's Muslims practice Islam.

Islam has been dormant for the last 300 years.... but look at its scientific history from the 7th to 15th century and you will change your mind. All I'm saying is that for almost a millenia, Muslim scientists were driven to explore the physical world as a manifestation of God's perfect creation that needs to be understood to understand God's attributes, since He cannot be comprehended directly.

Anyway, look up their history of science, i myself was amazed It's important to give credit where credit is due.

You are very correct. Muslim thinkers have gave humanity many great gifts for quite a while but this was not necessarily because they were 'closer to God' or something than Europeans. The Catholic Church (Christianity at the time) controlled virtually everything during that time period and yet Europeans were outpaced by the Arabs. This wasn't because of a different perspective on the world (Europeans were YECs at the time as well) but because Europeans were basically oppressed to a further to degree and existed in a world where the only science that mattered was that applied to war. Oppressive war mongering people who constantly battle each other over petty squabbles (aka Europeans during the middle ages) are not going to be good at developing optics, advanced medicine, and a better numeral system.

Westen science has been at the forefront for the last 400 years or so, but before that it was the Arabs, and before them the Greeks. Knowledge is not exclusive, it is passed down. The only reason we had a Renaissance in Europe it's thanks to exchanges of ideas with the Muslim empire that was present in Spain for 700 years until 1492.

Yes, all very true, but none of this has to do with the Muslims of the time being YECs. Europeans were to, look where it got them.

Aaah! You bring a good point, and there's an answer to this that is very simple. All this "garbage DNA" is turning out to be useful or just deactived. If you've done any computer programming, you could see how this is logical. We are a computer programmed written in DNA code. Since all life is using that same code, not all of it applies to everyone. So some of it will be disabled or active. Logic, yes yes?

If you've got an explanation as to what the pseudogene version of the ψη-globin gene does in a human I would love to hear it.

Also, even if all pseudogenes have a purpose, you still forgot about the "non-functional genes" I alluded to. These would include the genes humans have for a tail and the genes whales have for hind limbs; detailed here. There are only two possibilities for these structures; either the proper mutation occured to create a brand new gene to create the structure (sounds like a whole lot of new information to me) or there is a gene for the structure present in the organism's genome and it is normally covered up by a dominant gene. So, the question arises, why did God insert these genes into the genomes of "perfect" organisms.

All I'm trying to get at really is that God is limitless and his wisdom and power are expressed through His creation. He is in the details. The physical world was spread about for us to explore and wonder at his might.

Everything I see, touch, smell, and taste was created by God, correct, but only in the sense that He created the matter and energy that make up what I see, touch, smell, and taste.

sfs · #9 11th August 2003, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by mo.mentum

Oh? I always wanted a professional to answer this question for me. Well then, if Evilution is the only available explanation, it must have way to explain the sperm cell.

Sorry, the evolution of sperm is not a topic for human genetics: all the key components of sperm were in place long before humans appeared on the scene. Human genetics deals with genetic differences between different people and between humans and our closest relatives. There is no creationist model for human genetics.

If you were really interested in understanding how sperm might have evolved, the first thing you would do would be to start studying the different types of sperm cells present in living organisms. If you had done that, you would have found that your argument is badly flawed. You claim that sperm could not function without all of their components in place, and yet there are sperm cells that lack many of those components. Nematode sperm, for example, don't have tails, and the sperm of many sea animals lack a protective seminal fluid. Other components are common to many kinds of cells (enzymes, chemical sensing ability), and would have been in place before sperm cells started to specialize.

mo.mentum · #10 11th August 2003, 11:21 AM

The exact same could be said of special creation, why do you think Africans were treaded as sub-human prior to the publishing of Origin of Species?

Simple, it's called a "white man's burden". They saw themselves as civilizing the world. Origins only added justification to this reasoning.

Well, a global flood is used as a YEC excuse for the fossil record (as poor as it may be of an excuse

). To make it un-global is to take away any YEC responce to the world's geology, which is something I'm guessing (I could be wrong) you don't want. I agree that the story of Noah is based on a local flood; although I doubt God had anything to do with said flood.

What is YEC?

And i want to make the flood unglobal. Then it would fit the pattern of other punishments God brought down on rebellious people. Why would Noah's people be honored with a global flodo and have all humanity wiped out because of their evil? Doesn't make sense if God is Infinitely Just and Merciful.

Everything I see, touch, smell, and taste was created by God, correct, but only in the sense that He created the matter and energy that make up what I see, touch, smell, and taste.

Here lies a misconception about God. Many poeple see Him as the Creator and that's it. He set the wheels in motion and let the whole thing run its own course. This is simply not true. God created time and space and is not bound by them. Every moment of time is created. Creation is an ongoing process. He is the Sustainer of the world not just the Creator. At every instant, He destroys and created the world, like frames from a movie.