Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Theology (orthodox Christians only) > Theology (orthodox Christians only) > General Theology > Ecclesiology
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ecclesiology The branch of theology that is concerned with the nature, constitution & functions of the Church.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 15th June 2007, 03:29 PM
Kristos's Avatar
Servant

43 Gender: Male Married Faith: Eastern-Orthodox Country: Iceland Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 30th August 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 6,731
Blessings: 805,650
My Mood In Love
Reps: 1,077,661,102,801,181,440 (power: 1,077,661,102,801,195)
Kristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond repute
Kristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond reputeKristos has a reputation beyond repute
The seraphim are in the Church.
Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #32  
Old 16th June 2007, 01:07 AM
heymikey80's Avatar
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

51 Gender: Male Married Faith: Calvinist Party: US-Republican Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 18th December 2005
Posts: 14,314
Blessings: 14,270,952
My Mood Busy
Reps: 1,407,038,420,931,968,512 (power: 1,407,038,420,931,991)
heymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond repute
heymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond reputeheymikey80 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Rightglory View Post
In referencing Calvinsim I have not really ever heard or read any kind of theology that actually developed the mythical, spiritual church that constitutes for Calvinist and most other protestants as well, the Body of Christ.
In all of these texts we can gather that the Body of Christ follows both the Christologial, Incarnational meaning and Trinitarian meaning. We will need to use other texts for this as well.
So what are you saying? That you can't see what is quite clear from the text themselves referencing the Church in the ways they're expressed in Westminster? Not really a wonder to me, that a combative Orthodox advocate will find a bone to pick with any other church just so he can say it's not perfect.
Originally Posted by Rightglory View Post
Trinitarian means One God, but three distinct Persons. One Essence but Three Persons. We know also from Paul that he uses this terminology and understanding in describing how each individual in the church is yet ONE Body.Rom 12:4. Thus each congregation is also of the same structure, each congregation is a complete, whole representation the Body of Christ, it comprises the three essential elements, at least one lay member, a bishop and Christ, this is the use of the word "catholic" meaning whole, complete.
That reference essentially says we're connected to one another in one body of the local Church, "everyone among you". However, were what you said true, wouldn't you be forced to agree that this local church would then be ... inerrant -- according to what you said on a recent thread in Soteriology? Or is the Church not "whole, complete"?

The only other authority Christ gave was to secular authorities, governments. They do not resemble His Body, nor have the same authority.
Originally Posted by Rightglory View Post
I don't know of a single one. Might you give an example, if you have one.
Did the Church from the very beginning acknowledge the authority of elders? Or do you deny the authority of your elder?
Originally Posted by Rightglory View Post
this is as remote from scripture as one can get. How can Christ not be infallible, how is He limited? And the only one you are correct in, is that Christ recieved ALL authority in heaven and earth from the Father. But he also gave it those in authoriity here on earth in His Body of whom He controlls by His authority and the work of the Holy Spirit. This is precisely why the Church has never placed interpretation in the hands of men, surely a single man, has not even given revelation to a single individual, nor authority even in a group as a Council. It is all retained by Him through the Body, of which He is Head. That is why it is the Rule of Faith, that which is from the beginning.
Then if Christ is inerrant, and individual Churches are wholly the Body of Christ, each is inerrant.

We're the Body of Christ because we rely in Christ Jesus through the One Spirit, and through that reliance we do what He commands, learn His will, live His life in us. We're in union with Christ. We're errant because we're not in all ways relying on Christ, nor doing what He commands, nor always even aware of what He wills. The Church is thus errant as its members are not in all ways relying on Christ -- and the Church is composed of members who are thus errant.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 16th June 2007, 09:39 PM
Senior Veteran

Gender: Male Faith: Eastern-Orthodox Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 26th April 2006
Posts: 3,652
Blessings: 85,965
Reps: 39,443,854,616,532,064 (power: 0)
Rightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond repute
Rightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond reputeRightglory has a reputation beyond repute
Heymikey80,

So what are you saying? That you can't see what is quite clear from the text themselves referencing the Church in the ways they're expressed in Westminster? Not really a wonder to me, that a combative Orthodox advocate will find a bone to pick with any other church just so he can say it's not perfect.
I thought you contended there was only ONE church, yet you keep mentioning all these other churches.
That reference essentially says we're connected to one another in one body of the local Church, "everyone among you". However, were what you said true, wouldn't you be forced to agree that this local church would then be ... inerrant -- according to what you said on a recent thread in Soteriology? Or is the Church not "whole, complete"?
The only other authority Christ gave was to secular authorities, governments. They do not resemble His Body, nor have the same authority.
Not at all. Each and every member is not the Church itself. If one member, with Christ present and the bishop, it is still the Body of Christ. If all, including the bishop, then they are no longer the church. They have excised themselves from the Body, as any believer does individually. This is precisely what John wrote in Revelation to the Churches, the specific Churches listed. A Church can be excised, just as a member can to save the Body.
You mentioned the Arian controversy which lasted almost 400 years and at one time did include well over half of all Christians at that time. But the Body is much larger than that. Eventually those that did remain faithful to the faith once given, the faith of their forefathers who are also part of that Body of Christ who lived before them.

Did the Church from the very beginning acknowledge the authority of elders? Or do you deny the authority of your elder?
Absolutely. And when that elder becomes wayward, as did several bishops throughout history, we can wall them off and they will be dealt with by other elders, bishops.
The authority that Christ received from the Father, bestowed upon the Apostles, is not a delegated authority but a shared authority. The Holy Spirit is indwelt and abides in all members of that Body. All are led to the Truth. The Bishops have a special, consecrated authority and obligation, but it has been many times in the history of the Church that a laymen preserved and defended the Truth.
Thus communion is the highest authority in the Church. That communion is held in unity through the Eucharist. It is sharing in the Life of Christ. It is sharing His Body and His Blood.
It is real, it is organic and ontological. Above all it is a mystery.
At every eucharist the whole Christ is present, not just a part of Him. Christ is not more present in the eucharist at Moscow, or Chicago, or Constantinople or anywhere His Church is gathered in His name.
Essentially, what makes the Church the Church, what makes it a "fullness" is founded in Christ and union with Him. In essence, even if it was just Christ and one other person, that would be the fullness of the Church because that is where Christ is. Being united to Christ is the foundation for what the Church is. It is not the individuals which make the Church the Church, it is Christ and individuals unite to Christ to become part of the Church. Then if one member gets spiritually sick then the Church works with that person to help them find spiritual health, and if that doesn't work they are eventually cut off. If a whole congregation, a whole region, as history shows they will be cut off. If not by the visible Church now, they will be by the Lord on the Last Day.
That is why the Church is inerrant. It is Christ.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 18th June 2007, 06:04 PM
kepha31's Avatar
Regular Member

62 Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 15th June 2007
Posts: 557
Blessings: 73,494
Reps: 41,741,263,423,288,928 (power: 41,741,263,423,296)
kepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond repute
kepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond repute
Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?


Hebrews 13:17 says, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
What is the expiration date of this verse?


How do anti-church nondenominational cults, which have their own distinct theology, and often boast that they are “separated,” obey God’s command that Christians “all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Cor. 1:10)?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 18th June 2007, 07:18 PM
IamAdopted's Avatar
Senior Contributor

Gender: Female Married Faith: Christian Party: US-Republican Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 22nd November 2006
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 9,478
Blessings: 153,449
Reps: 26,509 (power: 43)
IamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to behold
IamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to behold
Jesus was not a denomitation but Lord God all mighty. Have you not read this.
Joh 4:19 The woman *said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.
Joh 4:20 "Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."
Joh 4:21 Jesus *said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
Joh 4:22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Joh 4:23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Joh 4:24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Joh 4:25 The woman *said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
Joh 4:26 Jesus *said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

We shall know whom belong to the Lord by their love. We are in Christ and Christ is in us through the Holy Spirit and not through a denomination. He came preaching Truth and Life through believing in Him that means putting your full trust and reliance in Him. Those who believe Him are given eternal life. We are always to obey our governing leaders as what the Pharasee's that sat in Moses seat were at that time. We can even see this in the Epistles. Unless of course they ask us to disobey God then we are to obey God and not man.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 23rd June 2007, 02:53 PM
kepha31's Avatar
Regular Member

62 Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 15th June 2007
Posts: 557
Blessings: 73,494
Reps: 41,741,263,423,288,928 (power: 41,741,263,423,296)
kepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond repute
kepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond reputekepha31 has a reputation beyond repute
We shall know whom belong to the Lord by their love. We are in Christ and Christ is in us through the Holy Spirit and not through a denomination. He came preaching Truth and Life through believing in Him that means putting your full trust and reliance in Him. Those who believe Him are given eternal life. We are always to obey our governing leaders as what the Pharasee's that sat in Moses seat were at that time. We can even see this in the Epistles. Unless of course they ask us to disobey God then we are to obey God and not man.


Amen. The "men" we are not to obey refer to those Jews who ordered the Apostles not to preach the Gospel; those "men" does not refer to those whom God gave authority to teach.


Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 24th June 2007, 06:51 PM
mothcorrupteth's Avatar
Orthodox Presbyterian and Covenanter

28 Gender: Male Faith: Calvinist Party: US-Others Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 8th August 2006
Location: Morgantown, WV
Posts: 301
Blessings: 1,021,455
My Mood Mellow
Reps: 3,582,745,182,531,692 (power: 3,582,745,182,539)
mothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond repute
mothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond repute
...

Last edited by mothcorrupteth; 6th March 2009 at 08:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 24th June 2007, 07:28 PM
IamAdopted's Avatar
Senior Contributor

Gender: Female Married Faith: Christian Party: US-Republican Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 22nd November 2006
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 9,478
Blessings: 153,449
Reps: 26,509 (power: 43)
IamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to behold
IamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to beholdIamAdopted is a splendid one to behold
Amen. The "men" we are not to obey refer to those Jews who ordered the Apostles not to preach the Gospel; those "men" does not refer to those whom God gave authority to teach.
Those men that was speaking of in the Gospel are also the men of the government and not teachers of truth. They were the pharasee's and did not love the Lord and IN FACT were the ones wanting Him put to death and you say we are to obey them? I get my authority from the Scriptures and Christ Spirit in me. I do not get my authority from Man when it comes to my Lord. He is my authority. For He is the only Head of His Church.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 25th June 2007, 09:14 AM
mothcorrupteth's Avatar
Orthodox Presbyterian and Covenanter

28 Gender: Male Faith: Calvinist Party: US-Others Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 8th August 2006
Location: Morgantown, WV
Posts: 301
Blessings: 1,021,455
My Mood Mellow
Reps: 3,582,745,182,531,692 (power: 3,582,745,182,539)
mothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond repute
mothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond reputemothcorrupteth has a reputation beyond repute
...

Last edited by mothcorrupteth; 6th March 2009 at 08:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 25th June 2007, 10:08 AM
I don't like titles

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Country: Australia Member For 5 Years Steward
 
Join Date: 8th January 2005
Posts: 8,340
Blessings: 1,147,728
Reps: 137,007,098,893,718,544 (power: 137,007,098,893,736)
TheDag has disabled reputation
Originally Posted by Uphill Battle View Post
the word Church, when interpolated into the text, is in error.

Ekklesia, is NOT church. Ekklesia is an assembly.

When you look at the scriptures in this light, you can see much more clearly the truth of the matter.

Matt.16
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my (assembly of believers), and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

so, the powerr of death will not prevail against Gods children. A wonderful promise! And it completely does away with the notion that He ever promised an error free institution.

Matt.18
[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the (assembly of believers); and if he refuses to listen even to the (assembly of believers) let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.


another instance that flies in the face of authority of one orginization! We are to take them to the assembly of believers. NOT a church.

it really chages the claim that Jesus instituted the EO or RCC church, doesn't it!
From reading this I would never have guessed that your point was
Originally Posted by Uphill Battle View Post
the key point is that denominationalism has nothing to do with whom Jesus calls his own.
Maybe next time you could actually provide definitions in the OP as that will stop people using the same word but different definitions.
__________________
against tradition simply for tradition. for tradition that has good reason.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to Ecclesiology

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:51 AM.