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  #421  
Unread 16th March 2007, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyGarnetRose View Post
Being my mother was Jewish, she has passed, and my father is Jewish, and their parents...Jewish, so on and so forth.

I don't have to shake hard to find a Jew in my family.

When I see something as antisemitic, it's because that's how I see it as a grandchild of Holocaust survivors.
Ditto...barrng my grandfather
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  #422  
Unread 17th March 2007, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Rdr Iakovos View Post
So, no offense or disrespect to the memory of your parens: but was the Holocaust they survived arguments on the internet over religious opinions, or was it suffering, murder and oppression?

I find the charges of anti semitism in the face of internet arguments to be a slap in the face of those who truly suffered.
The arguments started as sly comments...here and there. Small steps, down a slippery slope.

Why wait until it comes to physical murder, when if you think hatred of a brother or sister, you've already murdered in the eye of God.
  #423  
Unread 17th March 2007, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyGarnetRose View Post
The arguments started as sly comments...here and there. Small steps, down a slippery slope.

Why wait until it comes to physical murder, when if you think hatred of a brother or sister, you've already murdered in the eye of God.
You've yet to establish how disagreeing with you is synonymous with hating you to wanting to kill you.

I see your agument as being essentially the same, in this respect, as those homosexuals who claim that everyone who disagrees with them is "homophobic" and their opinions "hate speech."
IOW, it's pure unsubstantiated rhetoric.

IIf anyone here has begun down the slippery slope to murder, it would be they who refer to others as heathen and anti semite.
  #424  
Unread 17th March 2007, 05:42 PM
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Here is some info that supports the initial allegations of the OP:

Quote:

Had Hagee come to Washington with his usual spiel, perhaps these delegates would have been mortified to learn that Hagee calls the Jewish holiday of Rosh Hashanah "the Prophecy of the Trumpets," and says it represents the regathering of the church in anticipation of the Second Coming. He says the feast of Sukkot is significant because it will be the time of the Second Coming, and that the tallis, the Jewish prayer shawl, is a clear indication that there will be a Second Coming. You see, says Hagee, Jesus would not have left his tallis neatly folded up when he went off to his crucifixion if he didn't have plans to come back.

http://www.alternet.org/story/49230/


"The Mystery of the Prayer Shawl
The tallit or prayer shawl, designed by God, has been worn by devout Jews for centuries. Its legacy is woven throughout the Old and New Testaments. It still carries the power to energize your prayer life. Pastor Hagee gives you the keys from the Word of God to unleash this power in your own life. Included with this teaching is an authentic
prayer shawl imported directly from Israel.
SO-23 PRAYER SHAWL & TAPE
Shawl & audio tape $35 US/$46 CAN
Shawl & video tape $45 US/$59 CAN"


From Cornerstone Church/ John Hagee Ministries semi-monthly church magazine.


http://www.jhm.org/mag-pdfs/israelmag.pdf (see page 31)

also:

The tallit or prayer shawl has been worn by devout Jews for centuries. It was designed by God and infused with tremendous power. You'll find its legacy woven throughout the Old and New Testaments.
And it still carries the power to energize your prayer life. Pastor Hagee uncovers this dynamic truth and gives you the keys to unleashing it in your own life.
Included with this series is an authentic prayer shawl imported directly from Israel.
KT183D Prayer Shawl and DVD - $55


http://www.jhm.org/catalog/detail.asp?code=KT183D


Here is some more stuff:

quote:

...I don't know if you have had a chance to examine a prayer shawl. I have one, and it is one of my most treasured possessions. No, I don't believe you have to own or wear one for your prayers to reach heaven, but the Hebrew prayer shawl is a visible reminder of who and what God is. Moses wore a prayer shawl to his funeral, where God buried him. Daniel wore one in the lions' den. Jesus was given one on His thirteenth birthday and wore it every day of His life. He will wear it when He comes again with the saints of heaven.....

...
The name on His thigh is the tzitzit of the prayer shawl around His shoulders. Jesus will return to earth just as He left it . . . as a rabbi. He will come wearing the name that is above all names, and every eye shall see Him coming in power and glory.....


http://focusonjerusalem.com/flagofisraelnameofgod.html



Quote:
Description:

Emblazoned on the neckpiece is Psalm 91:10-11: “There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.” Woven in each of the four corners are powerful scriptures of protection. You and your family will cherish this beautiful and colorful prayer shawl as you are reminded every day of the assurance we have as believers under God’s strong arm of safety. Available in English and Spanish. Order yours today!


http://www.bennyhinn.org/shopping/productdesc.cfm?itemid=408
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כי-מהם המתגנבים אל-הבתים ושבים נערות טעונות חטאים ונתעות בתאות שנות׃

הלמדות תמיד ולעולם אינן יכלות לבוא לידיעת האמת׃

Last edited by torahgrandma; 17th March 2007 at 06:10 PM.
  #425  
Unread 17th March 2007, 08:09 PM
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You think Hagee and Hinn are Hebrew Roots teachers?
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  #426  
Unread 17th March 2007, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Wags View Post
You think Hagee and Hinn are Hebrew Roots teachers?
No, but it appears that they have bitten into the rotten Hebrew roots apple, and have now taken the worms to countless Christians around the world.
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כי-מהם המתגנבים אל-הבתים ושבים נערות טעונות חטאים ונתעות בתאות שנות׃

הלמדות תמיד ולעולם אינן יכלות לבוא לידיעת האמת׃
  #427  
Unread 17th March 2007, 08:35 PM
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If they're hebrew roots teachers...
then I'm monkey's uncle!
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Men should be judged, not by the tint of their skin, the Gods they serve, the Vintage that they drink, nor by the way they fight, or love, or sin, but by the quality of the thought they think.
--Laurence Hope


Warriors dance along a knife edge, maintaining the balance of their totality...celebrating strength while keeping it rigidly under control, only bringing it to bear when it is appropriate and unavoidable.
--Anon
  #428  
Unread 17th March 2007, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Gwenyfur View Post
If they're hebrew roots teachers...
then I'm monkey's uncle!
I am curious - who do you consider good heb roots teachers? or perhaps I should ask - those that you believe teach correctly?

thanx
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  #429  
Unread 17th March 2007, 09:58 PM
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Etymology of the word tallit

quote:

Therefore, if there really were a Hebrew word tallit, the plural would be talliyot. The plural tallitot itself proves beyond a doubt that this is not a real normal Hebrew word.

Secondly, the form tallit. Where is that pronunciation from? The word in not in the Bible, so it presumably comes from the traditional pronunciation of the various Jewish communities and the mss. of the Mishna with vowels. But surprise, surprise: the form tallit is MOA. Not attested at all.

Sefaradim pronounced the word (up until recently) as tallet (dagesh in the lamed, tzere before the tav). Ashk'nazim pronounced the word in accordence with the Ashk'naz pronunciation rules: "tales," with a single lamed, and a shva after the lamed, as is standard for an unstressed syllables (just like shabbes, not pronounced shabbos). Certainly no reason to think that the vowel after the lamed is a hiriq any more than a tzere or a qomatz or anything else. The plural taleysim would imply, if anything, a tzere.

Teimanim pronounced the word t'lit. Shva after the tet, sinle lamed. What about mss. with vocalization? All of the early mss. (including the most reliable, like Kaufmann and Parma A & B) have tallet. Dagesh in the lamed, tzere after the lamed. The ancient siddur of Worms/Vermayze has the word as talet: with a segol after the lamed (which alternates with tzere, as is common in the ms.) and no dagesh in the lamed (omission of the dagesh is also common). So it would seem that in the 13th century the word in Ashk'naz had a tzere, and that was still clearly the case in the 16th century, when the Bohur in HaTishbi punctuated the word as tallet.

So how do the dictionaries and everyone else know that the word is tallit?

The dictionaries follow the father of Hebrew dictionarydom: Eliezer ben Yehuda, who decided, by royal droit (or droit du roi, if you want the French order), that really the Ashk'nazim meant to say tallis in the singular. He had no evidence, but since he was the first of the modern dictionaries, he arrogated the right to make his own decisions as he saw fit.

Since the evidence points to tallet, then the word is not a normal Hebrew word with an -- it ending. So where is the word from?

Look in Even Shoshan, and he says it is possibly from the Aramaic root tll. Yes, indeed, the root tll is well atttested in Aramaic, as in the word m'tallalta for Hebrew sukka. The root tll (initial tet) is the Aramaic cognate of the Hebrew root tz-ll, as in the word tzel. If this is correct, a Hebrew word would have to have a tzadi, the Aramaic word a tet. All find and dandy, except... there is no Aramaic word tallit/tallet attested anywhere in Aramaic. Unlike Mishnaic words like ilan, a common Aramaic word, this word seems to have been created ex nihilo by the Mishna.

Furthermore, there is another, less well-known word in the Mishna which is certainly associated in meaning (remember, in the Mishna, tallet/t'lit does not mean exclusively "prayer" shawl). The word in most modern printed editions is vocalized itzt'lit: aleph, tzadi, lamed, tav, with some immot qriah thrown in as well. Look in Yoma 7:1 and Gittin 7:5. That word in the manuscirpts is written in various ways: the Kaufmann ms. has estalet, with no yod at all, a segol under the aleph, then a samekh, then a tzere after the lamed (which has no dagesh). The Rambam own hand ms. of the Mishna also has the word without a yod before the tav, indicating the vowel is not a hiriq. That word, as the various spellings give away, is the Greek word stol (also borrowed in English, by way of Latin, as meaning robe, commonly used as in mink stole). Aramaic and Leshon Hazal could not tolerate two consonants together beginning a word, and so a proclitic vowel was added to such Latin and Greek words, as also in words like itztadion (stadium) and many others. That Greek word, with the feminine Aramaic ending, was then estaleta/estalet or estalit. It seems clear that tallet was either a shortened form of this loan word, or some original Aramaic word from the root tll (which word is unattested) became influenced by the Greek loanword and its pronunciation. That would explain both tallet and t'lit: the Greek loanword had a short a vowel (commonly used as a reflex of the Greek omicron), so it either became a shva in Hebrew (and hence the Teimani form) or a pasah (which would require doubling of the lamed with a dagesh). Not only does a foreign origin explain the varying forms of tallet/t'lit, it would provide an explanantion for the third point, namely:

Ashk'naz rishonim use the word as masculine. As I pointed out, the terms talles qoton and talles godol are from the Ashk'naz rishonim, not the S'faradim. Other adjectives show that the word was masculine in Ashk'naz, even though it is feminine in the Mishna (and in Greek). Ashk'naz rishonim did not take such liberties with other feminine words with the im plural, such as taynis or shtus or shabbos. It is very plausible that the word was still felt to be a foreign one by the ge'onim and came in that way to Ashk'naz. This also would explain how an abberant plural like tallitot developed: take the singular and just add an -- ot. This was common with Greek words, and then was transferred by analogy to native Hebrew words. Eg. the Rambam has the plural of miqva as miqvot, but the standard form in Ashk'naz was miqva'ot, an analogy to Greek words ending in -- a.

So Philologos' explanation why the plural -- im may be partially correct. But it is also true that in Ashk'naz the word was treated as masculine. And the plural taleysim is correct, since the singular was tales, with a tzere. What about taneysim, the plural of taynis? That can be a simple analogy from the more common talis: tales (remember, shva after the lamed): taleysim = tanis (similarly shva): taneysim.



My comment:

No tallit in the talmud, only a word that could possibly be related, and tallit is not a Biblical Hebrew word. It appears that the word tallit came about during the middle ages.
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כי-מהם המתגנבים אל-הבתים ושבים נערות טעונות חטאים ונתעות בתאות שנות׃

הלמדות תמיד ולעולם אינן יכלות לבוא לידיעת האמת׃
  #430  
Unread 17th March 2007, 10:17 PM
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So then why are you referring to them as "hebrew roots teachers" ?

Talk about something rotten!
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The Torah is inadequate for that.
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