2 Questions

Kristos · #41 2nd October 2007, 08:27 PM

Your God sounds very cruel. Even sadistic.

stranger · #42 2nd October 2007, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kristos

Your God sounds very cruel. Even sadistic.

Wouild you care to explain just one example of something upon which you think that ? Then we can perhaps discuss the scripture that shows me at leaat why what God is doing is in fact loving to all men , and relies on all men seeing that God is loving in the end ?

Spade48d · #43 3rd October 2007, 12:32 PM

Hello stranger,

Re-translating the bible to say what one wants it to say is a common enough trick by sinners... but won't wash with God :-

How true that is. We have only to thank the bad translations of the vulgate and the translators for the king james version for such perversity as the word hell and eternal. The Rotherham translation I use has neither the word hell or eternal in it. Thanks to recent concordant literal translations we have been freed from some of those atrocious manipulations of scripture that have caused such harm to our spiritual well being.

As far as the word evil. It doesn't have a place in the Hebrew language. The basic Hebrew root word ra is more appropriately a concept of bad. So whether you call it calamity, adversity or evil, the concept is God created something bad vs good.

stranger · #44 3rd October 2007, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Spade48d

Hello stranger,

How true that is. We have only to thank the bad translations of the vulgate and the translators for the king james version for such perversity as the word hell and eternal. The Rotherham translation I use has neither the word hell or eternal in it. Thanks to recent concordant literal translations we have been freed from some of those atrocious manipulations of scripture that have caused such harm to our spiritual well being.

As far as the word evil. It doesn't have a place in the Hebrew language. The basic Hebrew root word ra is more appropriately a concept of bad. So whether you call it calamity, adversity or evil, the concept is God created something bad vs good.

Hi my friend,
Thank you for this.
...and yay, what a lot of desperate 'leaps of faith' into divided doctrines from sinners , from fear caused by tragic manipulation of words [which the bible warns against] ... so very hard to undo lifetime fears in many people of 'hell' and yet the scripture states that death has no sting any more ...

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word 'lord' has lost its meaning too to many people, they do not think that having Jesus ;as lord' means that one has to bey his command to love and cease to sin altogether ... the very foundation of God gets ignored because peole do not really have a conception of a 'lord' as requiring obedience , modern 'lords' get ignored by many people because they can buy their title, so men do not mostly understand that Jesus is not one's lord if one remains a sinner :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Jesus at his return rejects all who are still sinners :-Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

St Paul explains it in deatil, but a billion christians still believe otherwise from their sinner priesthoods which are not of the same order as Jesus and the priests of the new covenant of Grace with the descendants of Israel's two kingdoms , those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9] :-

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

We have siner priests leading ove a billion sinners in a false gospel about salvation of sinners, not of only saints... salvation in this life of many when the bible states there are but few and all 144,000 of them sealed from iniquity by knowing all God's truth [John 16:13]

It is fairly obvious that most men deie sinners not knowing all truth of God, but few seem to notice that and realise that these sinners at death could never have received spirit baptism in this life... one cannot even begin to perfect one's love until after spirit baptism, Satan is too strong a tempter for those who do not know all truth of God to defeat him in argument, as Jesus showed rthe way we must all do so eventually, but just a few first , many after this [Rev 7:9-10]...

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Again, Jesus states that countess any are saved later , in Rev 7:9-10,so how do men believe that many are saved now, when the scripture says how many are the first fruits , the royal priesthood of the order of Melchizedek [1peter 2:9-10] who will serve in the later salvation of the countless many ...

I do not understand how one confuses 'few' with 'inumerably many' jst to stay in lie with the mass of people following tradition... it is so very curious that men think they can change the scripture around and it will still work the way they changed it... how could it ?

Do you think Rotherham is truer to the Hebrew then? Which sources do you use ?

Ben12 · #45 3rd October 2007, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Spade48d

Hello stranger,

How true that is. We have only to thank the bad translations of the vulgate and the translators for the king james version for such perversity as the word hell and eternal. The Rotherham translation I use has neither the word hell or eternal in it. Thanks to recent concordant literal translations we have been freed from some of those atrocious manipulations of scripture that have caused such harm to our spiritual well being.

As far as the word evil. It doesn't have a place in the Hebrew language. The basic Hebrew root word ra is more appropriately a concept of bad. So whether you call it calamity, adversity or evil, the concept is God created something bad vs good.

Amen

Ben12 · #46 3rd October 2007, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by squint

All things were made by God for His Pleasure. (Rev. 4:11)

Evil did not just pop up out of nowhere, entirely on it's own. If ANYTHING exists, it exists because of GOD.

God will take a great delight in putting EVIL away permanently when it is done SERVING HIM.

enjoy!

squint

Amen again

armothe · #47 4th October 2007, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by squint

All things were made by God for His Pleasure. (Rev. 4:11)

God bringing about the concept of wickedness is entirely different than God actively creating wickedness. Your verses, if translated as you see fit would make God wicked - in that he participates in creating evil/wickedness - thus wicked things originate from Him. I just can't possibly believe this to be true.

-A

Spade48d · #48 4th October 2007, 12:21 AM

Hello stranger,

Do you think Rotherham is truer to the Hebrew then? Which sources do you use ?

To tell you the truth, Rotherham can be difficult to understand sometimes. I like it because it I got hooked on the style. Who knows maybe I just like Yoda speak.

I actually use a free software called e-sword which has numerous translations and studies. I frequently use the compare function to see different translations. I also like the CLV and sometimes ESV in addition to Rotherham. Someone else just recently recommended NASB, ESV, NIV and NKJV to use together in study.

There are so many other internet bible cites that you should be able to find what you are looking for. I unfortunately don't have any links handy but perhaps a few of our forum friends will kick in some of their favorites.

I hope that helps.

spade

squint · #49 4th October 2007, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by armothe

God bringing about the concept of wickedness is entirely different than God actively creating wickedness.

hmmmm....NOPE. Same thing. Sorry.

The scripture cited prior says that God created and creates 'all things' SO you have to find out if there is an "exception" to "all things." I haven't found any yet.

Your verses, if translated as you see fit would make God wicked -

That's called an argument from an excluded middle, meaning there are numerous alternative responses to potentially view than what you see LIKE perhaps God Is Far Greater than the SUM of all wickedness?

in that he participates in creating evil/wickedness - thus wicked things originate from Him. I just can't possibly believe this to be true.

Gods retributional evil is a very well established presentation in the O.T. AND God also ORDAINED the death of His Own Son, so what can we do about that? It doesn't pay to stick ones head in the sand on these matters.

Perhaps moving God and His Intentions in ALL these matters to a FAR SURPASSING POSITION is more of a reasonable view in the light of our present reality.

enjoy!

squint

Ben12 · #50 4th October 2007, 09:53 AM

Either God is God and is control of ALL things or He is not God.. Evil, wickedness, Satan are but tools to process and develop God's final results in a remnant in His earth; then He will deal with the remainder of mankind as well as His whole creation.