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2nd January 2007, 07:18 PM
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Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,876) | | | Question on Greek in Reve 12 and John 1
Hi. I noticed this greek word #4314 is used in both Reve 12:5 and John 1:1.
How is this word better defined into english? Thoughts?  Reve 12: 5.....the child of her toward/near the God and the throne of Him.
Reve 12:.......to <3588> [THE] teknon <5043> [CHILD] authV <846> {OF HER} proV <4314> [TOWARD] ton <3588> {THE} qeon <2316> {GOD} kai <2532> {AND} ton <3588> [THE] qronon <2362> [THRONE] autou <846> {OF HIM.} John 1:1 In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward/near the God, and God was the Word;
John 1:1 | en <1722> {IN} arch <746> {BEGINNING} hn <2258> (5713) {WAS} o <3588> {THE} logoV <3056> {WORD,} kai <2532> {AND} o <3588> {THE} logoV <3056> {WORD} hn <2258> (5713) {WAS} proV <4314> [TOWARD] ton <3588> {THE} qeon <2316> {GOD,} kai <2532> {AND} qeoV <2316> {GOD} hn <2258> (5713) {WAS} o <3588> {THE} logoV <3056> {WORD.} http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html
pros (Strong's 4314) occurs 725 times in 674 verses:
4314. pros pros a strengthened form of 4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. toward (with the genitive case, the side of, i.e. pertaining to; with the dative case, by the side of, i.e. near to; usually with the accusative case, the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, i.e. whither or for which it is predicated):--about, according to , against, among, at, because of, before, between, (where-)by, for, X at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), X together, to (you) -ward, unto, with(-in). In the comparative case, it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.
4253. pro pro a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:--above, ago, before, or ever. In the comparative, it retains the same significations
(Young) Daniel 7:13 `I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was [one] coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near.
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Coloss 2:14 Blotting out the against us handwriting to the decrees which was hostile to us,
And has taken out of the midst, nailing it to the stauros
Last edited by LittleLambofJesus; 16th January 2007 at 01:39 PM.
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3rd January 2007, 05:47 AM
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| | Join Date: 21st February 2003 Location: Manchester
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Reps: 4,318 (power: 18) | | | It's probably better to stranslate pros as "with" in John 1:1.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with(pros) God, and the Word was God
But then traslated as "to" or "unto" in Revelation 12:5
"And her child was seized to (Pros) God and to (pros) His throne"
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16th January 2007, 06:44 AM
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Reps: 885,914,951 (power: 885,927) | | Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus  Hi. I noticed this greek word #4314 is used in both Reve 12:5 and John 1:1.
How is this word better defined into english? Thoughts?
Oooh. This is a tough one, because the meaning depends on case and context. Same for all Greek prepositions really.
The basic meaning when followed by "ton" is to or towards (as in Rev 12:5) but it also can mean close to or with (because if I move towards you, I'll be close to you) as in John 1:1.
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16th January 2007, 06:47 AM
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Reps: 885,914,951 (power: 885,927) | | The basic meaning of towards when followed by "ton" is the top picture of a lion here: http://website.lineone.net/~ntgreek/f41-prep.html
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Lord, make me an instrument of your peace on this forum. Where there is hatred, grant that I may sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is discord, unity; where there is doubt, faith; where there is error, Your truth and not my personal opinion; where there is despair, hope; where there is sadness, joy; where there is darkness, light. O, Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled by people here as to console them; to be understood by them, as to understand them; to be loved by them, as to love them: For it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. |
16th January 2007, 05:54 PM
| | | | I think translators in their desire to translate John 1:1 into a clone of Gen 1:1 removed the intended meaning from the verse.
For instance the Greek noun Arche does not have to be translated "beginning" though it often is. In some cases the word means things like "rulers" or "magestry."
The word "was" can also be translated variously according to the context.
Instead of the phase "In the beginning was the word" (or "The word was in the beggining") I like "The logos existed in the magestry"
The rest falls into place.
"The logosystem existed as a prototypical archetype.
This logosystem projected the divine.
This logosystem was the image of the divine." |
23rd January 2007, 04:29 AM
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Reps: 885,914,951 (power: 885,927) | | Originally Posted by DreamerOfDreams I think translators in their desire to translate John 1:1 into a clone of Gen 1:1 removed the intended meaning from the verse.
I don't think so. I think your translation is a little fanciful, to be honest. For instance the Greek noun Arche does not have to be translated "beginning" though it often is. In some cases the word means things like "rulers" ...
I think you may be confusing Arche with Archon?
-- Radagast
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Lord, make me an instrument of your peace on this forum. Where there is hatred, grant that I may sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is discord, unity; where there is doubt, faith; where there is error, Your truth and not my personal opinion; where there is despair, hope; where there is sadness, joy; where there is darkness, light. O, Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled by people here as to console them; to be understood by them, as to understand them; to be loved by them, as to love them: For it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. |
1st April 2007, 03:49 PM
| | THAT IS WHAT I SAY
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Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,876) | | Originally Posted by DreamerOfDreams  I think translators in their desire to translate John 1:1 into a clone of Gen 1:1 removed the intended meaning from the verse.
How so 
The first verse in Genesis is missing the article "the" as is John 1:1 and Revelation 1:1.
John 1:1 In [a] beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward/near the God, and God was the Word;
Revelation 1:1 [a/an] From/Un-Covering/Veiling[ apo-kaluyiV] Yeshuwa` Mashiyach, which gives to Him, the God/YHWH, to show to the bondservants of Him, which is behooving to be becoming in swiftness.
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Coloss 2:14 Blotting out the against us handwriting to the decrees which was hostile to us,
And has taken out of the midst, nailing it to the stauros |
1st April 2007, 05:34 PM
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Reps: 1,528,090,958,814 (power: 1,528,090,967) | | Originally Posted by DreamerOfDreams I think translators in their desire to translate John 1:1 into a clone of Gen 1:1 removed the intended meaning from the verse.
For instance the Greek noun Arche does not have to be translated "beginning" though it often is. In some cases the word means things like "rulers" or "magestry."
The word "was" can also be translated variously according to the context.
Instead of the phase "In the beginning was the word" (or "The word was in the beggining") I like "The logos existed in the magestry"
The rest falls into place.
"The logosystem existed as a prototypical archetype.
This logosystem projected the divine.
This logosystem was the image of the divine."
Like Radagaast, I find your translation a little fanciful. Though, I will give you partial agreement. The word arche, usually translated "beginining" can carry the meaning of ruler. Bauer Arndt Gingrich Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 2nd Edition, page 112 gives references).
The Greek root "arch-" connotes priority in time or rank.
But, the phrase "en arche" in John 1.1 is identical to the words used in the Septuagint at Genesis 1.1.
It's a pretty sure thing that John had Genesis 1.1 in mind as he wrote the Gospel.  |
1st April 2007, 05:47 PM
| | The Artist Formerly Known as RegularGuy
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Reps: 1,528,090,958,814 (power: 1,528,090,967) | | Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus John 1:1 In [a] beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward/near the God, and God was the Word;
Just a quick note on the word order in the last part of this verse. While your translation is literally correct, it doesn't convey the meaning of the verse correctly. The phrase "kai theos en ho logos" is better translated "the Word was God."
Both "theos" and "logos" are in the nominative because "en" (eta nu) is an equative (or copulative verb). "theos" is recognized as the predicate of the sentence because it lacks the article. Likewise, "logos" is recognized as the subject because it has the article.
To translate the phrase as "God was the Word" gives the wrong impression in English because in English word order determines subject/predicate relationship. |
23rd July 2007, 11:27 PM
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Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,876) | | | Ok Thanks.
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Coloss 2:14 Blotting out the against us handwriting to the decrees which was hostile to us,
And has taken out of the midst, nailing it to the stauros | | |
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