Question on Greek in Reve 12 and John 1

LittleLambofJesus · #11 20th November 2007, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Radagast

Oooh. This is a tough one, because the meaning depends on case and context. Same for all Greek prepositions really.

The basic meaning when followed by "ton" is to or towards (as in Rev 12:5) but it also can mean close to or with (because if I move towards you, I'll be close to you) as in John 1:1.

Wouldn't the greek word for "with" have been used instead of the word used for "toward/near"?
I really never looked at the distinction closely between those 2. Thanks for your post.

LittleLambofJesus · #12 10th December 2007, 03:29 AM

Someone brought up an interesting post on the GA board concerning this topic.

http://christianforums.com/t6555215-john-11.html

John 1:1

So, hisdaughter posted a website hosting an interlinear translation of the bible... so of course I ran straight for John 1:1, lol.

Always interested in translations...

So here's what it says:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...NTpdf/joh1.pdf

Notice how literally translated it was "in beginning was the word and the word was toward the God and God was the word"

Notice (the word) was toward (the God), and God (not "the God") was the word.

Now, greeks used words MUCH more precisely than we do today.
A: the act of not using a definite article implies the indefinite article of "a god" instead of "The God" ... this much of a point is made quite often... however, I did notice something else (which I may be wrong about, and I'm sure I'm not the first to notice):

B: "It says theos emie ho logos"... not the other way around. Not "ho logos emie ho theos"... or even "ho logos emie theos"...

Monkeys are animals, but not all animals are monkies. Doesn't this suggest that "a divine being was the word" showing that he was more than a vibration, but the physical incarnation, and angelic (for lack of a better term) representation of God's will?

Similar to the idea of an angel of death... "an angel is death" but not "death is an angel." Two completely different connotations. Replacing "God" for "Angel" (for lack of a better term for "A divine being other than 'ho theos'" it would be:

"...and an angel is Logos."

Someone know more about greek than me? Is this sentance structure common? By saying "god was the word," is it interchangeable with "the word was ("not the") god?"

Preferably an atheist greek scholar, lol... I honestly don't want bias here... I'd rather KNOW I'm wrong than THINK I'm right incorrectly.... but I'd prefer to KNOW I'm right.

D.W.Washburn · #13 10th December 2007, 10:56 AM

LittleLamb:

The lack of a definite article in Greek does not always indicate that we should supply an indefinite article. For example the phrase "Holy Spirit" is often not given an article. This is because it was understood that there is only one Holy Spirit.

The verb "eimi" ("I am") is a copulative verb. This means that it connects two nouns both of which will be in the nominative case (theos en o logos--"en" being the third person singular imperfect of "eimi" "he, she, or it was"). The nominative case is used to indicate the subject of a sentence.

In English, word order is used to show the relationship of different parts of a sentence. In Greek, word order had more to do with emphasis.

So, if you have two nominative case nouns connected by a copulative verb, how do you know which one is the subject of the sentence? Those clever Greeks used an article to show which was the subject.

kai theos en ho logos = and the word was GOD. (I capitalized God in order to show the words emphasis in the sentence).

Despite Greek's alleged precision, the use of prepositions in the Koine Greek was particularly slippery. "Pros" has the general meaning of "toward" or "near" but had a wide range of meaning that included "with."

Hope that helps.

greatnut · #14 10th December 2007, 02:38 PM

Hi all

The thing with the prepositions like "pros" is that there are so many ways they can be translated. You have to see from the context which form of the preposition to choose. I think that in the KJV, Rev 12:5 and John 1:1 both have chosen the correct forms of the preposition.

Usage: AV - unto 340, to 203, with 43, for 25, against 24, among 20, at 11, not tr 6, misc 53, vr to 1; 726

brinny · #15 2nd November 2009, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Hi. I noticed this greek word #4314 is used in both Reve 12:5 and John 1:1.
How is this word better defined into english? Thoughts?

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

pros (Strong's 4314) occurs 725 times in 674 verses:

4314. pros pros a strengthened form of 4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. toward (with the genitive case, the side of, i.e. pertaining to; with the dative case, by the side of, i.e. near to; usually with the accusative case, the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, i.e. whither or for which it is predicated):--about, according to , against, among, at, because of, before, between, (where-)by, for, X at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), X together, to (you) -ward, unto, with(-in). In the comparative case, it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.

4253. pro pro a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:--above, ago, before, or ever. In the comparative, it retains the same significations

this verse is astounding:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~John 1:1

It encapsulates the entire Bible in one verse......it boggles me mind.

LittleLambofJesus · #16 2nd November 2009, 01:16 PM

bump.......will come back to this later

brinny · #17 2nd November 2009, 01:21 PM

yayyyyyy!!!

LittleLambofJesus · #18 1st March 2010, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by brinny

yayyyyyy!!!

LittleLambofJesus · #19 1st August 2010, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

bump.......will come back to this later

Okie doie.....I iz back

YHWHis1 · #20 1st August 2010, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by D.W.Washburn

LittleLamb:

The verb "eimi" ("I am") is a copulative verb. This means that it connects two nouns both of which will be in the nominative case (theos en o logos--"en" being the third person singular imperfect of "eimi" "he, she, or it was"). The nominative case is used to indicate the subject of a sentence.

In English, word order is used to show the relationship of different parts of a sentence. In Greek, word order had more to do with emphasis.

So, if you have two nominative case nouns connected by a copulative verb, how do you know which one is the subject of the sentence? Those clever Greeks used an article to show which was the subject.

kai theos en ho logos = and the word was GOD. (I capitalized God in order to show the words emphasis in the sentence).

Despite Greek's alleged precision, the use of prepositions in the Koine Greek was particularly slippery. "Pros" has the general meaning of "toward" or "near" but had a wide range of meaning that included "with."

Hope that helps.

I'm not quite sure I agree with LittleLamb.
Two nominatives do not always HAVE to reflect two different subjects, it could just indicate two different aspect of the same subject

I can see clearly that the subject of the sentence is "The Word". There can be no doubt in that, especially the way that John phrased his 3 part sentence:
1- At start, the Word was
2- toward The God, the Word was
3- god, the Word was.
There can be no doubt on the nominative there

And may I ask my good brother where is the emphasis in this?

God bless.