Oooh. This is a tough one, because the meaning depends on case and context. Same for all Greek prepositions really.
The basic meaning when followed by "ton" is to or towards (as in Rev 12:5) but it also can mean close to or with (because if I move towards you, I'll be close to you) as in John 1:1.
Wouldn't the greek word for "with" have been used instead of the word used for "toward/near"?
I really never looked at the distinction closely between those 2. Thanks for your post.
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Saint and Martyr William Tyndale (1494-1536)
LLOJ's Patron Saint
“I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!”
William Tyndale cried out "Lord, open the King of Englands eyes"
2 kings 6:17 And 'Eliysha` is praying and saying "YHWH, open! please! his eyes and he shall see"
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Notice how literally translated it was "in beginning was the word and the word was toward the God and God was the word"
Notice (the word) was toward (the God), and God (not "the God") was the word.
Now, greeks used words MUCH more precisely than we do today.
A: the act of not using a definite article implies the indefinite article of "a god" instead of "The God" ... this much of a point is made quite often... however, I did notice something else (which I may be wrong about, and I'm sure I'm not the first to notice):
B: "It says theos emie ho logos"... not the other way around. Not "ho logos emie ho theos"... or even "ho logos emie theos"...
Monkeys are animals, but not all animals are monkies. Doesn't this suggest that "a divine being was the word" showing that he was more than a vibration, but the physical incarnation, and angelic (for lack of a better term) representation of God's will?
Similar to the idea of an angel of death... "an angel is death" but not "death is an angel." Two completely different connotations. Replacing "God" for "Angel" (for lack of a better term for "A divine being other than 'ho theos'" it would be:
"...and an angel is Logos."
Someone know more about greek than me? Is this sentance structure common? By saying "god was the word," is it interchangeable with "the word was ("not the") god?"
Preferably an atheist greek scholar, lol... I honestly don't want bias here... I'd rather KNOW I'm wrong than THINK I'm right incorrectly.... but I'd prefer to KNOW I'm right.
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Saint and Martyr William Tyndale (1494-1536)
LLOJ's Patron Saint
“I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!”
William Tyndale cried out "Lord, open the King of Englands eyes"
2 kings 6:17 And 'Eliysha` is praying and saying "YHWH, open! please! his eyes and he shall see"
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The lack of a definite article in Greek does not always indicate that we should supply an indefinite article. For example the phrase "Holy Spirit" is often not given an article. This is because it was understood that there is only one Holy Spirit.
The verb "eimi" ("I am") is a copulative verb. This means that it connects two nouns both of which will be in the nominative case (theos en o logos--"en" being the third person singular imperfect of "eimi" "he, she, or it was"). The nominative case is used to indicate the subject of a sentence.
In English, word order is used to show the relationship of different parts of a sentence. In Greek, word order had more to do with emphasis.
So, if you have two nominative case nouns connected by a copulative verb, how do you know which one is the subject of the sentence? Those clever Greeks used an article to show which was the subject.
kai theos en ho logos = and the word was GOD. (I capitalized God in order to show the words emphasis in the sentence).
Despite Greek's alleged precision, the use of prepositions in the Koine Greek was particularly slippery. "Pros" has the general meaning of "toward" or "near" but had a wide range of meaning that included "with."
Hope that helps.
Last edited by D.W.Washburn; 10th December 2007 at 11:03 AM.
The thing with the prepositions like "pros" is that there are so many ways they can be translated. You have to see from the context which form of the preposition to choose. I think that in the KJV, Rev 12:5 and John 1:1 both have chosen the correct forms of the preposition.
Usage: AV - unto 340, to 203, with 43, for 25, against 24, among 20, at 11, not tr 6, misc 53, vr to 1; 726
pros (Strong's 4314) occurs 725 times in 674 verses:
4314. pros pros a strengthened form of 4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. toward (with the genitive case, the side of, i.e. pertaining to; with the dative case, by the side of, i.e. near to; usually with the accusative case, the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, i.e. whither or for which it is predicated):--about, according to , against, among, at, because of, before, between, (where-)by, for, X at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), X together, to (you) -ward, unto, with(-in). In the comparative case, it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.
4253. pro pro a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:--above, ago, before, or ever. In the comparative, it retains the same significations
this verse is astounding:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~John 1:1
It encapsulates the entire Bible in one verse......it boggles me mind.
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To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, "I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge" --Ravi Zacharias
‘If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents—the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts—i.e. of materialism and astronomy—are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milkjug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.’
C.S. Lewis
"God is in the rain."~Evey in V for Vendetta
"Strength is born in the deep silence of long suffering hearts; not amid joy." Felicia Hemans
"The unexamined life is not worth living". ~Socrates
i hated it when God insisted i "yawp!"
but He knew i must,
and that my life would not begin,
until i yawped.
We all must learn to yawp.
we MUST awaken the passion,
that part of us that feels intensely,
and is NOT afraid to say so
or to express it.
Otherwise we are just dead men walking.
my journal/blog:
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Saint and Martyr William Tyndale (1494-1536)
LLOJ's Patron Saint
“I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!”
William Tyndale cried out "Lord, open the King of Englands eyes"
2 kings 6:17 And 'Eliysha` is praying and saying "YHWH, open! please! his eyes and he shall see"
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To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, "I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge" --Ravi Zacharias
‘If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents—the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts—i.e. of materialism and astronomy—are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milkjug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.’
C.S. Lewis
"God is in the rain."~Evey in V for Vendetta
"Strength is born in the deep silence of long suffering hearts; not amid joy." Felicia Hemans
"The unexamined life is not worth living". ~Socrates
i hated it when God insisted i "yawp!"
but He knew i must,
and that my life would not begin,
until i yawped.
We all must learn to yawp.
we MUST awaken the passion,
that part of us that feels intensely,
and is NOT afraid to say so
or to express it.
Otherwise we are just dead men walking.
my journal/blog:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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