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  #1  
Unread 28th December 2006, 08:51 PM
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She who is in Babylon

I am curious as to what peoples interperatations are of this message in Peters Epistle:

"She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, (AK)Mark."- Peter -5:13


Now we all know babylon was Rome during that time. But when Peter says "She" who do you think he was talking about. I have been reading many cross referances but sometimes I have thought the "she" that peter was talking about was Mary, and at other times I think it is the Mother Church. Since the church is reffered to as a woman 'she'..Now we all know that Mark was Peters "recorder" in a way, but I am curious as to why he calls him a son..could mark have been a blood son of Peter or is he talking in more a symbolic sense?
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  #2  
Unread 28th December 2006, 10:41 PM
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It may refer to Peter's wife, who traveled with him or a sister in the Lord, or it may refer to the church. It is not known really who or what it refers to there.
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  #3  
Unread 29th December 2006, 12:31 AM
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Hmmmmm...............................

The Babylon of the Old Testament was in what we know today as Iraq. I've never heard of it in any other light.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.
  #4  
Unread 29th December 2006, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Renton405 View Post
I am curious as to what peoples interperatations are of this message in Peters Epistle:

"She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, (AK)Mark."- Peter -5:13


Now we all know babylon was Rome during that time. But when Peter says "She" who do you think he was talking about. I have been reading many cross referances but sometimes I have thought the "she" that peter was talking about was Mary, and at other times I think it is the Mother Church. Since the church is reffered to as a woman 'she'..Now we all know that Mark was Peters "recorder" in a way, but I am curious as to why he calls him a son..could mark have been a blood son of Peter or is he talking in more a symbolic sense?
The "she" may refer to the church in "Babylon" since it mentions her as "chosen together with you". Since he was speaking to the Church at large, the reference might be to the Church at "Babylon".

I find it amusing that Catholics who insist Babylon does not refer to Rome elsewhere will insist that it does refer to Rome here since it would support their position that Peter was headquartered at Rome.

Babylon may or may not refer to Rome. At some points in history, Rome was referred to as Babylon by Christians because of the persecutions but these persecutions had probably not yet begun at the time of this Epistle so it does not probably refer to Rome here. There is also the possiblity of Jerusalem being the reference. The early persecution of Christians was by the Jewish authorities as seen in Acts and in the Book of Revelation it identifies Babylon as the city where Christ was crucified. That would be Jerusalem. Jerusalem was also the mother church and held the special role (see the Council in Acts 15 and Paul's fundraising efforts). There is also the possibility that the reference was to the city of Babylon itself. Babylon was the major city apart from Jerusalem for Jews (and would serve as the place where the Talmud was compiled). If indeed Peter was the "apostle to the Jews", then he certainly would make Babylon a place to visit regularly on his journeys.
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Unread 29th December 2006, 01:44 AM
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I think "she" most definitely refers to some church. Churches are normally referred to as "she" or "her" especially by the RC's and EO's.

but these persecutions had probably not yet begun at the time of this Epistle so it does not probably refer to Rome here.
I think Christian persecutions were already happening in Rome, because by the time Peter wrote his epistle I think Paul had already travelled there.

There is also the possiblity of Jerusalem being the reference.
This could be because I think Peter's main "headquarters" if you will were in Jerusalem. Paul's, of course were in Rome.
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  #6  
Unread 29th December 2006, 09:13 AM
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I dont think there are any referances that show jerusalem as babylon, espesially since there was no paganism in jerusalem and babylon always represented a evil pagan nation. Jerusalem was always called the holy city or the holy land..The city of seven hill(Rome) is refered to as babylon many times. Rome was the center of indulgences, sin, and weath. And babylon has the symbolic meaning of such a place too(a city that is a center for sin, weath and living lavishly; and Rome at the time was the closest thing to it).. babylon could have also represented the emporer Nero, who killed Peter in Rome by crucifying him upside down.. the bones in peters grave at St. Peters in Rome show this..I think jerusalem would have been too harsh for peter or any of the apostles to stay in because of the great hatred the Jews had for Jesus in Jerusalem. The apostle Paul had very very much trouble preaching in Jerusalem according to scripture, so Im sure many of the apostles went outward instead of staying in jerusalem..

Ive been trying to do studying if Mark really was a blood son of Peter and if he was talking about his wife. But it seems he might of been talking of Mary or the Church..If anyone kind find out more info on this, it would be great, Ive found mostly vague info on this..
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Last edited by Renton405; 29th December 2006 at 09:22 AM.
  #7  
Unread 29th December 2006, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Renton405 View Post
I dont think there are any referances that show jerusalem as babylon, espesially since there was no paganism in jerusalem and babylon always represented a evil pagan nation. Jerusalem was always called the holy city or the holy land..The city of seven hill(Rome) is refered to as babylon many times. Rome was the center of indulgences, sin, and weath. And babylon has the symbolic meaning of such a place too(a city that is a center for sin, weath and living lavishly; and Rome at the time was the closest thing to it).. babylon could have also represented the emporer Nero, who killed Peter in Rome by crucifying him upside down.. the bones in peters grave at St. Peters in Rome show this..I think jerusalem would have been too harsh for peter or any of the apostles to stay in because of the great hatred the Jews had for Jesus in Jerusalem. The apostle Paul had very very much trouble preaching in Jerusalem according to scripture, so Im sure many of the apostles went outward instead of staying in jerusalem..

Ive been trying to do studying if Mark really was a blood son of Peter and if he was talking about his wife. But it seems he might of been talking of Mary or the Church..If anyone kind find out more info on this, it would be great, Ive found mostly vague info on this..

Read the Book of Revelation again - Jerusalem is referred to as Babylon! It mentions that it was the city that had gotten drunk on the blood of the prophets - Rome was not even a major power at the time of the prophets! Jerusalem was the persecutor of the prophets of God as they turned from the worship of the true God to false gods. It had also become a major source of wealth under the Herodian dynasty - just look at the massive construction projects such as Masada, the Temple, and Ceasarea! Jerusalem's wealth under Herod was so great that when Octavian Augustus became Emperor by defeating Marc Antony he forgave Herod's support of his rival in exchange for vast sums of tribute. Babylon is also described as the "great city" - a moniker always given to Jerusalem. The "great city" is described as the place where Christ was crucified - an obvious reference. So indeed the early Christians did at times refer to Jerusalem as Babylon because of their rejection of the Lord.
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Unread 29th December 2006, 11:33 AM
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Babylon could be either Jerusalem or Rome. In the Petrine context, we really don't know, although we might favor Rome since Peter wrote from Rome and wouldn't likely send greeting to Asia Minor from someone twice as far away from him (Jerusalem) as the people to whom he was writing.

Regardless, I think it refers to Maria Markus- Mary the mother of John Mark. Peter is consistently identified with her in the New Testament, and refers a few words later in the verse to Mark his son. Might Mary the mother of Mark and Peter had an emotionally intimate (emotionally only, I suspect) relationship in their later years? It makes for great fiction (as I write this in my own stories, oh does it ever), but there's really no way to know.
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Unread 29th December 2006, 11:40 AM
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If he is speaking of the Church as "she" then why would Mark not be part of that collective "she"? I suppose I could say that my "whole household and my son say hello" but it seems odd.....

Seems like it would be a person....
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Unread 29th December 2006, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by eoe View Post
If he is speaking of the Church as "she" then why would Mark not be part of that collective "she"? I suppose I could say that my "whole household and my son say hello" but it seems odd.....

Seems like it would be a person....
perhaps because Mark was traveling with him and was not a part of the Church at "Babylon" - wherever that might be.
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