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Old 26th June 2003, 01:31 PM
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Why do good buddhist monks go to hell?


Please me understand this question. Why should truely GOOD people who may or may not have heard the message of Jesus Christ spend eternity in hell, eternally separated from God? I am a Christian, and I recently went through a questioning phase, but have come out of it with renewed faith. BUT my questions remain unanswered. That is okay for me because I believe anyway, but what about my ex-boyfriend, who used to be an atheist and has how turned to Buddhism? He is respectful of Christianity, and has even read the Bible, but his questions and objections reguarding Christianity are too hard to counter. We broke up 2 days ago, and are both hurting over it. The reason is because I've always known in the back of my mind that I shouldn't marry him because he is a nonbeliever, and we know we shouldn't get more attached to eachother if ultimately it will not work. I am also respectful of Buddhism and have read much about it with him. Buddhist teachings are very wise and honorable, I think. They teach compassion for all mankind and selflessness. I still care deeply about my ex-boyfriend, and wish I had more to say in defence of Christianity. He is a very moral person, who is innately honest and of good, compassionate character, but he is not a Christian.
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Old 26th June 2003, 01:45 PM
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Wow, I can only imagine the hurt you must be going through. First, I'd like to say that you made the right choice with breaking up. As hard as it must be to have that happen, a couple that does not believe the same thing is just asking for trouble.

Now, to answer your question. The reason is simple. Good works do not get you into heaven. Believing that Jesus died to save you from your sins and that he is the only way is what saves you. I know it can be sad, because there are some really good people out there that will not go to heaven because they do not believe the truth. That is why as Christians we must make sure we share the truth with everyone. I have just recently realized how important it is to not only believe that Jesus is the way, but to support it with knowledge, or you will not be able to stand up to others of different faiths. I am sorry for what you are going through, and will pray for your situation. Please don't give up! God is awesome and can change your ex-boyfriends heart! Pray and have faith. Research and find out how to show him the truth-make sure to support it with facts, and do it in a loving way, not condeming.
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Old 26th June 2003, 01:57 PM
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a Buddhist in hell

Namaste rainangel,

thank you for the post.

You are correct when you assert that according to your beliefs, Buddhists will suffer eternal punishment in hell for not believing in the salvation of Jesus or in God.

however, please consider this from the other side of the coin. from your ex-boyfriends perspective, he will not be suffering in hell any longer than his karma would dicate at which point the essence would be reborn into whatever state his karma indicated. provided that he was reborn in a hell realm. it is possible for him to change his karma now and directly influence the subsequent rebirth... or end it altogether.

whilst this is necessarily brief and loose with Buddhist teaching, it should suffice for our discussion.

an analogy may help here:

Most religions teach that they are the one true path to salvation and all unbelievers are cast into hell. This is a doctrine known as exclusivism. Buddhism is not exclusivist. Any person guided in their activities by compassion is regarded as following a beneficial spiritual path.

Unfortunately, in Christianity exclusivism went to extreme lengths with many denominations (at one time) claiming that they were the one true faith and the other denominations of Christianity were corrupt (or even in league with anti-Christ). This situation has improved during the past 50 years, but 'Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' ( No salvation outside (our) Church) is still the official policy of the Vatican, though how many Catholics still believe in it is open to question.

However his does raise an interesting scenario. Presumably a Salvation Army officer who devoted her life to rescuing drug addicts and alcoholics would be regarded as ****** for all eternity by traditional Catholic theologians. A Buddhist, on the other hand, would regard such a person as an advanced spiritual practitioner - a Bodhisattva or possibly even a manifestation of Buddha Tara . (One of the more surprising teachings of Mahayana Buddhism is that Buddhas can appear in whatever form is beneficial to sentient beings, and Buddhas needn't necessarily be Buddhist!) . So, taken to its logical conclustion, Christian exclusivism would require one Christian to regard a fellow Christian as ******, while a Buddhist would recognise her as a saint!

~compassionately~
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Old 26th June 2003, 02:11 PM
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Although Im sure many will disagree with me, from my understanding of christianity
No Matter What the bible says, God gets last Judgement.

So it is possible that God could Judge some good who arent christians. He could also give someone a second chance to accept Jesus etc.

I know some christians dont like that idea, but thats what happens when you have an all powerfull god that gets final judgement. In the past god didnt play by his own rules, so we cant be sure he will in the future.
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Old 26th June 2003, 02:31 PM
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The reason is simple. Good works do not get you into heaven. Believing that Jesus died to save you from your sins and that he is the only way is what saves you.
Are you saying that a child molesting mass murder will go to heaven so long as he or she believes the above?

If so if really speaks bad of your religion.

Rainangle minght I suggest you read the following:
Zen for Christians: A Beginner's Guide by Kim Boykin
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Old 26th June 2003, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Volos
Are you saying that a child molesting mass murder will go to heaven so long as he or she believes the above?

If so if really speaks bad of your religion.
No, I didn't say that, but I guess I didn't NOT say that either. I believe that a person that continuously and purposefully sins, (e.g. a child molesting mass murderer) is not going to go to heaven. You cannot follow Jesus AND live in consious deliberate sin. That said, I also believe a person that WAS a child molesting mass murderer can turn from his ways and be forgiven, and thus saved. If he truely repents (turns away) from his evil ways and turns towards God, and believes that Jesus died to save him from his sins, then he will be saved.

Last edited by Waiting4tomorrow; 26th June 2003 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 26th June 2003, 08:31 PM
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In regard to the first and second posts....

Well to Rainangel: It is always sad to have a breakup... I'm sorry it came to work out that way. This is one of the reasons Christianity never seemed to set well with me. It seems it's causing you some pain. I believe God is love and you can't even enjoy the prospect of it because of this doctrine that you place before it. Literally, and this is simply my opinion and not meant in disrespect, you place these "rules" before God.

Maybe your ex-boyfriend believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ but it just doesn't take the form YOU are accustomed to. Maybe it's all the same thing...Certainly an all knowing God won't limit himself to one form. At least that's what I think. But, you do what you think is right.

And "waiting4tomorrow": This doctrine of yours is so disempowering of your GOD. So you say Christians adhere to the thought that good must only take one form of acceptance in one character "JESUS CHRIST" in order to be validated enough to enter the realm of heaven. This is certainly not a “truth” that should be held by an ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING GOD. An omniscient God would know that GOOD takes many forms and all those forms are deserving of recognition. How some Christians limit God, it saddens me. And now, you perpetuate a pain that this girl goes through because she was taught this TRUTH that she holds more dear than enjoying the LOVE that is part of God’s very being and creation. And God is trying to tell her that very thing because she morns the loss. But she won’t listen because the voice of preachers and the words in a book have told her not to. I think it’s sad.

And rainangel: please don’t pray for your ex to believe in what you do (for God to change his heart. Why would anyone want someone’s heart to change? It’s who you are.). That is immoral because you judge that your way, or even someone else’s way is the only way. It disrespects him and what he believes. If you love your faith, stick to it and don’t be sad that left him behind. That is TRULY being happy with what you believe to be RIGHT.
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Old 27th June 2003, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by spinto
I believe God is love and you can't even enjoy the prospect of it because of this doctrine that you place before it. Literally, and this is simply my opinion and not meant in disrespect, you place these "rules" before God.
I also believe that God is love, but does that mean that we are supposed to avoid anything that makes us hurt? God gives "rules" to follow so that we don't get hurt, and to keep us from turning away from Him. Sometimes it does hurt at first, but that's what happens when there is sin in the world.

Certainly an all knowing God won't limit himself to one form.
What does the fact that God is all knowing have to do with whether or not he would "limit himself to one form"? Why wouldn't He?

And "waiting4tomorrow": This doctrine of yours is so disempowering of your GOD.
How so? God can't choose to have only one way to Him? How does having only one way to Him have anything to do with desempowering Him?

So you say Christians adhere to the thought that good must only take one form of acceptance in one character "JESUS CHRIST" in order to be validated enough to enter the realm of heaven. This is certainly not a “truth” that should be held by an ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING GOD. An omniscient God would know that GOOD takes many forms and all those forms are deserving of recognition.
So now you're telling me what God SHOULD be like. Again, you're saying that one way to God cannot be true because it somehow shows that God is not all powerful or all knowing. Yes there are different forms of good-by the worlds terems. God has different terms-we are ALL unworthy to be saved. Non of us are "Good" enough. It is through Jesus we are saved, not through what the world describes as "good".

How some Christians limit God, it saddens me. And now, you perpetuate a pain that this girl goes through because she was taught this TRUTH that she holds more dear than enjoying the LOVE that is part of God’s very being and creation. And God is trying to tell her that very thing because she morns the loss. But she won’t listen because the voice of preachers and the words in a book have told her not to. I think it’s sad.
So if you mourn something it means that it is God's will? Mourning is a feeling, and our feelings are often not tuned to what God's will is. Just becuase you FEEL something is right doesn't necessarily mean that it IS right.

And rainangel: please don’t pray for your ex to believe in what you do (for God to change his heart. Why would anyone want someone’s heart to change? It’s who you are.). That is immoral because you judge that your way, or even someone else’s way is the only way. It disrespects him and what he believes. If you love your faith, stick to it and don’t be sad that left him behind. That is TRULY being happy with what you believe to be RIGHT.
If she truely is a Christian, she will pray for his heart to be changed. That is what Christians do. They pray for those who don't believe that Jesus is the only way to come to know the truth. It is not "immoral" to pray for someone to change their beliefs. If that were true, many many religions are "immoral" simply because of that reason alone. Most are trying to get others to follow their ways.
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Old 28th June 2003, 01:34 AM
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If she truely is a Christian, she will pray for his heart to be changed. That is what Christians do. They pray for those who don't believe that Jesus is the only way to come to know the truth. It is not "immoral" to pray for someone to change their beliefs. If that were true, many many religions are "immoral" simply because of that reason alone. Most are trying to get others to follow their ways.
So you are saying that it is not immoral for a Muslim to pray to Allah to change your heart from Christian to Muslim? Yea... I can see that, really what you are saying is that it is ok to "wish" or "pray" that things go your way which might or might not be the will of God. But then that would contradict Jesus' instruction to pray that "God's will" be done, not man's. You are saying that we should pray that our will be done while hoping (wishing) that it is in line with God's will.

Of course no one knows what God's will really is, therefore we can't really pray for anything without creating a conflict with God's true will. Unless you think that God will violate or Give-in to the begging and then change his will to your will's request. If this is how prayer works then you can only bend God's will to events that you can conceive would have some effect on your life. But what about all the other things that God's will will bring that you missed, what if you had just known to pray that God would not give cancer to your Uncle Felix instead of having to wait until God allowed him to get cancer before you started your begging.

Prayer is too limited to be a valid method of changing events to make things work out in the good Christian's life. Why not just deal with stuff as it comes up and use your God given understanding and wisdom to overcome, deal with,or accept problems. It would seem that a praying Christian should be able to Cheat on life events using prayers on some limited events that are currently creating problems.

If prayer really worked, why hasn't the insurance companies given a discount to Christians like they do to non-smokers? Surely there are more Christians that are cured of disease than non-christians. Right?
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Old 28th June 2003, 05:35 AM
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[quote=Waiting4tomorrow]I also believe that God is love, but does that mean that we are supposed to avoid anything that makes us hurt? God gives "rules" to follow so that we don't get hurt, and to keep us from turning away from Him. Sometimes it does hurt at first, but that's what happens when there is sin in the world.


Reply Spinto: Every situation cannot be treated in the same way. This situation with rainangle is one that is very sad because religion gets in the way of what might be a happy relationship. And what makes me say that, is she is upset over having to choose between the prospect of love and a religion (at least that is the impression she gives). So, in this situation "I" would avoid the hurt by allowing my partner or significant other to developed their spirituality the best way they see fit. That is genuine and most respectful. If she can't live with that compromise and the contrast is too great, than it really should be a relief for her that she discontinued the relationship. But, that is not the impression she gives. She is asking why must good people go to hell who do not believe in Jesus Christ. Why does she ask? Because she knows deep down, that it’s not fair. In addition she knows that SHE has a problem with that point of view. And that feeling IS the voice of GOD in my opinion. So no, these “Christian rules” do not work with everyone and apparently they can't keep you from getting hurt. Otherwise, she would be renewed and unquestioning of the decision she’s made.


[quote=Waiting4tomorrow]What does the fact that God is all knowing have to do with whether or not he would "limit himself to one form"? Why wouldn't He?

Reply Spinto: Why would he? I think Christians think too much in a little box when it comes to God. They are so busy trying to explain him and practicing what they interpret to be truth in order to make it into this exclusive HEAVEN --

[Which brings me to another question here on the side: If this big “Heaven Payoff” possibility did not exist, do you think most Christians would continue to be “Good Christians”? Or would all this “service to the LORD” go by the wayside because that promised payoff would not be available?” I only ask because getting into heaven often seems to be the only motivation for being Godly]

-- they totally miss what is going on in life and often what God is really trying to say. I realize this is my observational opinion. You ask, "Why wouldn't he?" Well, you say he created man (and to a certain degree I agree, but maybe not in a literal sense). Last I checked, we come in all different shapes, sizes, cultures, beliefs etc.... So, why would he pick just a few of his children and banish the rest to hell. How unloving and down right cruel... I refuse to think of God that way because I know I don’t deserve to be treated that way. Again that is how I choose to believe.

[quote=Waiting4tomorrow]How so? God can't choose to have only one way to Him? How does having only one way to Him have anything to do with desempowering Him?

Reply Spinto: This is personification. You limit God to the qualities of Man. Man is limited (not limited in quality, just not a GOD). Choices are made by Man. God just is.

[quote= Waiting4tomorrow]So now you're telling me what God SHOULD be like. Again, you're saying that one way to God cannot be true because it somehow shows that God is not all powerful or all knowing. Yes there are different forms of good-by the worlds terems. God has different terms-we are ALL unworthy to be saved. Non of us are "Good" enough. It is through Jesus we are saved, not through what the world describes as "good".

Reply Spinto: No I'm not telling you what God should be like. I'm telling you that there is a contradiction in Christian thought that God is all powerful when you turn around and limit the deity by saying what he Can’t do ( For example, can’t welcome you into heaven if you are a wonderful person but otherwise don’t believe that Jesus died for your sins). I am also telling you what God IS like in my life. That is truth to me. Furthermore, what kind of good can a population on a whole be if they think they are unworthy to be saved? That is just the self-degrading attitude that is one of the biggest reasons I'm not a church goer. I am good enough. I am good enough to be happy, I'm good enough to be loved and accepted for who I am (and certainly good enough to be accepted by God as I am).

[quote=Waiting4tomorrow]So if you mourn something it means that it is God's will? Mourning is a feeling, and our feelings are often not tuned to what God's will is. Just becuase you FEEL something is right doesn't necessarily mean that it IS right.

Reply Spinto: I believe God's will is your free will. Feeling is God and Feelings are often God's word. That is why I don't believe in the bible. I know this may not be true for everyone, but it is for me. I say that because it would be immoral for me to state ONE WAY for everyone. I just speak for myself and what God means to me.

[quote=Waiting4tomorrow] If she truely is a Christian, she will pray for his heart to be changed. That is what Christians do. They pray for those who don't believe that Jesus is the only way to come to know the truth. It is not "immoral" to pray for someone to change their beliefs. If that were true, many many religions are "immoral" simply because of that reason alone. Most are trying to get others to follow their ways.

Reply Spinto: Again, this is immoral. No one has the right to change another’s heart. (for example, my words here are not meant to change beliefs, it’s meant to be noticed as a singular voice and meant to provoke thought--even to encourage your own faith by arguing against me) God says that he should believe in him a certain way and that is the way it needs to be. And yes, many many religions are immoral if they pray for others to dissolve the very essence of their free will (their UNIQUE Faith). Christianity is often right up there on the immorality scale in their dictations of what is right and wrong for everyone. This I believe to be true. And yet, I don't **** you to hell and I don't pray for your soul. I just feel frustrated when I'm thought of as lacking spirituality and morality simply because I don't agree. Simply, what is right for you is right for YOU. Embrace Christianity IF its right for you. Spare others the damnation for not believing as you do.
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