| Soteriology The forum to discuss the theological doctrine of salvation. |
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1st July 2003, 02:03 AM
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1st July 2003, 02:56 AM
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Reps: 1,242,496,784 (power: 1,242,526) | | No, that's just plain lousy grammar, Ben. God does not will/desire (boulomai) any should perish, but wills/desires that all men proceed to/come to (choreo) repentance. The action performed is by 'all' not by God. Again, you are reading what you want into the verse.
To assert that Peter is writing "God does not decree WHOM HE HAS ELECTED to perish", is still redundant. If Peter believed in PREDESTINATION, what reason would there have been to say "He does not decree YOU PREDESTINED to perish"? Whichever way you take "CHOREO", either GOD-MAKES-ROOM" or "ALL-TO-REPENT", Calvinists still assert that God does NOT decree reprobation; --- but it remains GOD'S CHOICE.
Let's look at the entire 2nd letter of Peter to see if he REALLY believed in predestination, may we? 1:1To those of the SAME FAITH AS OURS, escaped the corruption by lust through the TRUE-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 1:5 Be diligent, in your faith have moral excellence & perseverance & godliness & kindness & love; 1:9 he who LACKS these qualities is BLIND, has FORGOTTEN FORMER PURIFICATION FROM SINS. 1:10 THEREFORE be DILIGENT to make sure these things ARE yours, that you not BECOME-WRETCHED; 1:11 in THIS way the gates of Heaven will be provided to you. 2:1 Beware of false prophets & teachers, who are slaves to sin; 2:18 seeking to entice the TRULY ESCAPED; 2:20 for if AFTER escaping the defilements of the world through the TRUE SAVED KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled and overcome, they are WORSE than BEFORE they believed! 2:21 Better to never have TRULY KNOWN the way of salvation than to have TURNED FROM the holy commandment! 3:1 Beloved, I am writing to you to REMIND you to REMEMBER the sincere words! 3:3 KNOW that mockers will say, 'WHERE IS HE?' 3:7 But the present heavens and earth are preserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 3:9 The Lord is not slow, but is patient; not decreeing any to perish but delaying for all to repent. 3:10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a THIEF; 3:14 therefore, beloved, be diligent to BE FOUND BY HIM IN PEACE, SPOTLESS AND BLAMELESS! 3:17 You, BELOVED, therefore BE ON YOUR GUARD lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, YOU FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS! But GROW in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!"
=> Be diligent that you NOT FORGET your purification, that you HAVE these fruits, that the GATES OF HEAVEN be provided to you !
=> Beware of false teachers/prophets, who seek to entice the TRULY ESCAPED; for if after HAVING escaped they are again entangled and overcome, they are WORSE than BEFORE they were saved!
=> Beloved, I am REMINDING you to REMEMBER the words of the prophets and the commandment of Jesus!
=> There will be MOCKERS saying "WHEN IS HE COMING" --- but He is WAITING, not DECREEING condemnation but WAITING for ALL to repent.
=> Jesus is coming as a THIEF (surprisingly, when He is not expected); be DILIGENT that He finds you in PEACE, SPOTLESS AND BLAMELESS! do NOT be led astray by unprincipled men that you FALL from your OWN STEADFASTNESS!!! But GROW in GRACE and knowledge of JESUS!
The entire letter reads as a STERN ADMONISHMENT against FALLING-FROM-SALVATION. There are those who say "you can be UNSTEADFAST but still SAVED!" This is WRONG. Peter labors to document those who WERE saved but are ENTANGLED in the cares of the world; he CHALLENGES us to PERSEVERE, to make SURE of our position IN CHRIST. He warns us NOT to be led astray by false men. Where is PREDESTINATION in ANY of the WHOLE LETTER?
It's just not there, is it?
Perseverance is OUR responsibility. As Paul writes, "He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM (JESUS)!" Col1:22-23
Do you see? They BOTH say the SAME THING. Steadfastness IN salvation, continuing in the FAITH, is very much OUR choice. The "IF" is REAL; not "empty warning". The "ENTANGLED AGAIN and OVERCOME", "FALL FROM STEADFASTNESS", are REAL --- not "empty warning".
The more I read, the more I see all of them believed in conditional security; IOW, responsible grace. |
1st July 2003, 03:14 AM
| | Legend
| | Join Date: 9th February 2002 Location: Oklahoma
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Reps: 1,242,496,784 (power: 1,242,526) | | All that typing without addressing the heart of the issue...man's natural inability and unwillingness to believe in the first place.
Where has it been established that mankind is TOO DEPRAVED to BELIEVE? Paul rather says, "All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!" Those who take Rom3 (none righteous, none who seek God) as DICTATE, fail to accomodate Jer29:12-14. The entire Gospel is based on "BELIEVE and you WILL BE SAVED; but if you WON'T believe then you are CONDEMNED ALREADY." John3:19-1 shows that "men who DON'T believe are they who LOVE DARKNESS and don't want the LIGHT to EXPOSE their evil deeds!" THere is nothing to forbid them from being convicted and RECEIVING THE LIGHT. WHAT?!? Calvinism says Christ is not the potential savior of all men? Did I not just labor to make the point that His sacrifice WAS sufficient for all? He is the potential savior of all mankind by means of merit and sufficiency
Nope --- no matter how lengthy the denials, His sacrifice was NOT available to the NON-ELECT. There is no "potential Savior of all mankind" --- according to Calvinism, either SAVING FAITH must be INSTALLED by God, or the person must be EQUIPPED to RECEIVE the gift of grace (his HEART changed BEFORE he believes). My analogy of the stranded armless man is more appropriate than yours of the "dead-floater"; the dead man is BEYOND HOPE (as Calvinism asserts --- removing him from POTENTIAL SALVATION). But the ARMLESS MAN is not EQUIPPED to RECEIVE his salvation! |
1st July 2003, 03:28 AM
| | Legend
| | Join Date: 9th February 2002 Location: Oklahoma
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Reps: 1,242,496,784 (power: 1,242,526) | | Ben why are you so angry at Calvinism?
There is no anger. I simply read the Scripture to assert in verse after verse after verse after verse --- God's GRACE, and our RESPONSIBLE FAITH... Why is it so unthinkable that God set up the circumstances of your salvation and that He planted the desire for Him in your heart ? Does that strip your salvation of meaning for you? Does it only have meaning if you make the first move and God reacts to you?
Do you understand --- that in this quote I made of you, the operative is "UNTHINKABLE"? What I THINK (or what you THINK) is irrelevant. God needs neither of us to effect His paradigm; it exists beyond yours and my thoughts. It should be possible to read His plan in Scirpture. I just posted the backbone of 2Peter; serious admonishment TO saved-beloved-brothers, NOT to be led astray to fall-from-steadfastness. But Peter is not the ONLY AUTHOR; I cited John in 2:1:7-9, showing how JOHN warned against "being led astray by deceivers and antichrists, even to FALLING FROM SALVATION". I showed many verses of Paul's about "being led astray by deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons", Paul making the exact same kind of admonishment as Peter did in his 2nd letter; and also in Peter's FIRST letter --- shall we go through that? Shall we discuss: "BEWARE of the devil, prowling, seeking whom he may DEVOUR, but resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that your brothers share your suffering; after you have suffered, God ...will perfect/confirm/strengthen and establish you"; that though for awhile you have been distressed by trials, the proof of your faith (tested by fire) may be found to result in glory/honor/praise at the revelation of Christ, obtaining as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls!" ???
Do you think "BEWARE" and "DEVOUR" in 1:5:8 does NOT present eternal danger? Why did he write "DEVOUR"?
Where in the Scripture is this "predestined-to-salvation" in which Calvinists believe?  |
1st July 2003, 09:21 AM
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 | | Join Date: 6th January 2002 Location: Nacogdoches, Texas
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Reps: 79 (power: 0) | | | Thanks for replying to my frustrations a few pages back all...I just get scared sometimes that our debates cause anger, and I don't want that. All seems peaceful here and I'm thankful for mature brothers and sisters to discuss things with. I pray it always remains!Much love and blessings to you!
Blessings,
FOMWatts<><
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1st July 2003, 10:01 AM
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Reps: 9,365,974,161,504,184 (power: 9,365,974,161,522) | | Originally Posted by Ben johnson To assert that Peter is writing "God does not decree WHOM HE HAS ELECTED to perish", is still redundant. If Peter believed in PREDESTINATION, what reason would there have been to say "He does not decree YOU PREDESTINED to perish"? Whichever way you take "CHOREO", either GOD-MAKES-ROOM" or "ALL-TO-REPENT", Calvinists still assert that God does NOT decree reprobation; --- but it remains GOD'S CHOICE. boulomai
1) to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded
2) of willing as an affection, to desire
I'm not going to explain it again, Ben. I've put the verse in its whole context. I've posted it extensively on another thread also. You're just setting up strawmen to tear down and I'm not playing. You're persisting in incorrect translations and interpretations in the face of glaring inconsistencies. The more I read, the more I see all of them believed in conditional security; IOW, responsible grace.
You see what you want to see, Ben, and you're jumping through all sorts of hoops to cling to it. Sancification is a synergistic endeavor. It is possible for us to fall from steadfastness and backslide, but that is not the same as falling from salvation. Peter calls us to be diligent and steadfast. You're reading your theology right into it and it's glaringly obvious.
__________________ "The primary focus of evangelism is to be faithful, not convincing. Just as the primary focus of our works is to be faithful, not to earn something." Sola Fide | Sola Gratia | Solo Christo | Soli Deo Gloria | Sola Scriptura |
1st July 2003, 12:50 PM
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| | Join Date: 9th February 2002 Location: Oklahoma
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Reps: 1,242,496,784 (power: 1,242,526) | | I just get scared sometimes that our debates cause anger, and I don't want that. All seems peaceful here and I'm thankful for mature brothers and sisters to discuss things with. I pray it always remains! Much love and blessings to you!
You honor us with your concern. Christian debate always purposes to build and to draw closer to God --- never to injure or put-down. If in the end common agreement on all things cannot be achieved, then we agree-to-disagree, finding commonality of belief in God and desire for love and fellowship; and we wait for "the Perfect to come, when we shall know fully, even as we are fully known."
With every word we speak (and post), the world stands in judgment of us. Whatever our words, let them be said in LOVE --- that the world sees Christ in us, and will want what we have. "The overseer must ...be able to both exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. In all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say to us." Titus 1:9, 2:7-8 |
1st July 2003, 01:22 PM
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Reps: 1,242,496,784 (power: 1,242,526) | | I'm not going to explain it again, Ben. I've put the verse in its whole context. I've posted it extensively on another thread also. You're just setting up strawmen to tear down and I'm not playing. You're persisting in incorrect translations and interpretations in the face of glaring inconsistencies.
We are "at odds" over 2Pet3:9 because of two interpretations: "The Lord ..is patient toward you, not willing that any He has pre-chosen to perish, but waiting for ALL-HIS-PRE-ELECT to come to repentance." "The Lord ...is patient toward you, not decreeing that ANYONE perish, but desiring ALL MANKIND to come to repentance."
By summarizing the entire second letter of Peter in Post #62, I demonstrated the theme of the writing; Peter spoke TWICE of "those who HAD escaped corruption/defilements through the true saved knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ (chapter 1, vs 1-4, chapter 2, vs 18-22); but in the SECOND passage he speaks of them "forsaking salvation and returning to their mire/vomit". There is no difference in the level of salvation between the two, as presented by Peter --- he uses the exact same words to describe them. There is no way to remove or paint-over Peter's words in chapter 3, "be on your guard against being carried away by unprincipled men TO FALLING FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS". I hope we can agree that the UNSTEADFAST are not saved. I hope we can also agree that this is presented as a real warning --- not "empty hyperbole", gentle "bugbear" against that which could NEVER actually HAPPEN...
The entire letter is against apostasy-of-true-believers. This contextual message really removes the credibility of Calvinists' understanding of verse 2:3:9 (green-quote above), and endorses the responsible understanding (purple-quote above).
I certainly mean no disrespect; it just appears to me that Calvinism only persists by re-defining "PAS" to mean "ONLY SOME of ALL TYPES", rather than the contextual "EVERYONE". "SO THEN as condemnation came to PAS ANTHROPOS (all men), EVEN SO justification came to PAS ANTHROPOS (all men)". Rom5:18 An exact equality, removing the ability to contend "the SECOND 'pas-ALL' means only SOME of 'em" The equality (SO-THEN/EVEN-SO) presents the FIRST "all" to be equal to the SECOND "all"; all are condemned, likewise all have justification truly available.
It also seems to me that some "back-pedalling" occurs; by contending that "all men are POTENTIALLY savable" and that "salvation is OFFERED to all men", seems to present a glaring contradiction. How is one potentially savable, if God's forceful ACTION is required but God does NOT DO the forceful action in MOST? This is why I presented the "armless rescue" analogy. If God throws the rope to EVERYBODY, but God must then INSTALL the will to GRAB the rope (so it's not realy ARMLESSNESS but HEARTLESSNESS that Calvinism asserts), how is everyone given a chance? How is there POTENTIAL if God denies most WHAT IS NECESSARY to ACHIEVE salvation? There is no POTENTIAL where there is no POSSIBILITY!
We are throughout Scripture charged to watch ourselves against deceitful sin, against falling-from-steadfastness, against believing the lies of deceivers, against falling away from God to eternal death. "See to it that no one takes YOU captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8 |
1st July 2003, 04:46 PM
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| | Join Date: 23rd March 2003 Location: Texas
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Reps: 172,701 (power: 189) | | Originally Posted by Ben johnson Calvinists still assert that God does NOT decree reprobation;
This Calvinist certainly believes in the Doctrine of Reprobation. Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
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1st July 2003, 04:57 PM
| | Voted best Semper Reformada signature ~ 2007
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Reps: 172,701 (power: 189) | | Originally Posted by Ben johnson Where has it been established that mankind is TOO DEPRAVED to BELIEVE? Paul rather says, "All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!" Those who take Rom3 (none righteous, none who seek God) as DICTATE, fail to accomodate Jer29:12-14. The entire Gospel is based on "BELIEVE and you WILL BE SAVED; but if you WON'T believe then you are CONDEMNED ALREADY." John3:19-1 shows that "men who DON'T believe are they who LOVE DARKNESS and don't want the LIGHT to EXPOSE their evil deeds!" THere is nothing to forbid them from being convicted and RECEIVING THE LIGHT.
The command to repent and believe no more implies that man has either the ability or want to do either than the command to stretch forth your withered arm implies that man has the ability to do that.
Therefore, all your bluster above about believing entirely misses the point. Man is dead in sin. The Bible says it; I believe it; why don't you? Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
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