Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
Since we are going to have to go over everything over the last 3 months (not your fault, webmaster, these things happen), we might as well start with that old claim "There are no transitional fossils". Here is a list of sources of transitionals I have compiled. It is not complete. It is restricted to series of transitional [b]individuals[b] that link one species to another or, a series of individuals that go from species to species linking genera, families, orders, and even class in the taxonominc ranking. Examples of classes are mammals and birds. Each is a class.
Transitional individuals from one class to another
1. Principles of Paleontology by DM Raup and SM Stanley, 1971, there are transitional series between classes. (mammals and reptiles are examples of a class)
2. HK Erben, Uber den Ursprung der Ammonoidea. Biol. Rev. 41: 641-658, 1966.
Transitional individuals from one order to another
1. C Teichert "Nautiloidea-Discorsorida" and "Actinoceratoidea" in Treatise on Invertebrate Paleontology ed RC Moore, 1964
2. PR Sheldon, Parallel gradualistic evolution of Ordovician trilobites. Nature 330: 561-563, 1987. Rigourous biometric study of the pygidial ribs of 3458 specimens of 8 generic lineages in 7 stratgraphic layers covering about 3 million years. Gradual evolution where at any given time the population was intermediate between the samples before it and after it.
Transitionals across genera:
1. Williamson, PG, Paleontological documentation of speciation in cenozoic molluscs from Turkana basin. Nature 293:437-443, 1981. Excellent study of "gradual" evolution is an extremely fine fossil record.
Speciation in the fossil record
1. McNamara KJ, Heterochrony and the evolution of echinoids. In CRC Paul and AB Smith (eds) Echinoderm Phylogeny and Evolutionary Biology, pp149-163, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1988 pg 140 of Futuyma.
2. Kellogg DE and Hays JD Microevolutionary patterns in Late Cenozoic Radiolara. Paleobiology 1: 150-160, 1975.
There are also transitional species. This is where you have species linking higher taxa. Often there are transitional individuals involved, although these may not be specifically described. An example of this is in the evolution of whales from land mammals.
It's going to be a pain looking over it all again, although this systematic approach should work well. Perhaps we should also point out that all fossils are transitional, but some are just in clearer series.
__________________ Greatest Hovind quote of all time, as voted for by members of CF:
"Teaching the pagan religion of evolutionism is a waste of valuable class time and textbook space. It is also one of the reasons American kids don't test as well in science as kids in other parts of the world."
It's going to be a pain looking over it all again, although this systematic approach should work well. Perhaps we should also point out that all fossils are transitional, but some are just in clearer series.
When stabilizing selection is working, then the fossils aren't transitional, because the population is stable and not changing. Also, many lineages die out without leaving descendents. Thus, the fossils of H. erectus in China are not transitionals. They are on a dead end. The same applies to the later neandertal fossils.
Now, there are transitional H. erectus in Africa where the population was transforming to H. sapiens. And in the 300,000 year ago range, there are transitional fossils of H. erectus to H. neandertal.
But to say that "all fossils" are transitional is going a bit far.
When stabilizing selection is working, then the fossils aren't transitional, because the population is stable and not changing. Also, many lineages die out without leaving descendents. Thus, the fossils of H. erectus in China are not transitionals. They are on a dead end. The same applies to the later neandertal fossils.
Now, there are transitional H. erectus in Africa where the population was transforming to H. sapiens. And in the 300,000 year ago range, there are transitional fossils of H. erectus to H. neandertal.
But to say that "all fossils" are transitional is going a bit far.
Sorry, I forgot about extinction and stable populations.
But some transitional forms is still much more impressive than no transitional forms as creationists claim. This thread should be kept near the top for easy reference.
__________________ Greatest Hovind quote of all time, as voted for by members of CF:
"Teaching the pagan religion of evolutionism is a waste of valuable class time and textbook space. It is also one of the reasons American kids don't test as well in science as kids in other parts of the world."
Sorry, I forgot about extinction and stable populations.
But some transitional forms is still much more impressive than no transitional forms as creationists claim. This thread should be kept near the top for easy reference.
It's OK. That particular argument -- all fossils are transitional -- has been repeated many places by evolutionists on the web. However, statements by evolutionists have to be tested just like statements by creationists.
The fact that there are ANY transitional series falsifies all forms of creationism, from YEC to ID. ALL of them forbid transformation of populations across taxonomic boundaries. The furthest I've seen "kind" stretched is "family", and we have several transitional series that go way beyond that.
I'll try to keep bumping the thread up. Will you help, too, please?
Sorry, I forgot about extinction and stable populations.
Do they count as transitional when they're transitional between their ancestors and oblivion? I mean, they still had to get to the point when they went extinct.
Do they count as transitional when they're transitional between their ancestors and oblivion? I mean, they still had to get to the point when they went extinct.
Remember the claim: ALL fossils are transitional.
Let's take the sequence of neandertals. At 300,000 years ago we have fossils that are intermediate between H. erectus and later neandertals. Then there are fossils up to about 40,000 years ago where the neandertal features become more derived. Then the later fossils are the most derived but, since the neandertals went extinct, how can you call them "transitional"? Transitional to what?
Also remember stasis. That part of Punctuated Equilibria where most species are in stasis up until their extinction. Yes, we can occasionally find the isolated geographical area where the splinter population transforms to the new species, but the vast number of the original population remains unchanged up until the point of extinction.
I'm sorry, but the view of evolution where entire populations transform to new species -- phyletic gradualism -- simply isn't supported by the fossil record. Altho it happens, by far the vast majority of speciation occurred allopatrically or sympatrically. And it is phyletic gradualism you need for the statement "all fossils are transitional".
bump, because we got another post claiming no transitional fossils.
__________________ "If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890
It's OK. That particular argument -- all fossils are transitional -- has been repeated many places by evolutionists on the web. However, statements by evolutionists have to be tested just like statements by creationists. 
Linear Mode
