Metallic Hydrogen Canopy?

notto · #1 17th April 2003, 09:41 AM

This supposed phenomena has been mentioned in a few threads so I thought we could bring it out and discuss it on its own.

There are several problems I can see with this model, mostly dealing with the energy of the reactions and process it would take to turn metallic hydrogen into water for use in a flood model. It would be interesting to see some numbers (grams, Joules, etc) put to these but this is only a start. Please let me know if any of the assumptions made below are incorrect or need to be adjusted.

1) Metalic hydrogen must first be converted into a gas, whether it goes through a liquid phase or directly to gas is unknown, but either way, it would take a lot of energy from the surrounding enviroment to do this. Not sure where this energy comes from. It would have to come from an outside source or the process sucked a lot of heat out of the atmosphere. (Welcome to the ice age)

2) Once we have gaseous hydrogen, it would take up a lot of space. This would cause the barometric pressure to increase dramatically and also cause much of the hydrogen to be lost to space. The hydrogen would not fall to earth, it would rise up as a gas. (Even if the metalic hydrogen "broke" up and fell to earth, it would need to become a gas on its way down before it could be used to create water). (Breathing would be rather difficult at this point with the high pressure).

3) Now, we need to add oxygen to the hydrogen to make water. It would take 8 times the weight of the hydrogen in oxygen to do this. Was there a solid oxygen canopy as well to provide this oxygen? If not, this reaction would suck oxygen out of the atmosphere. (Breathing becomes even harder with low oxygen and high pressure)

4) The reaction of hydrogen and oxygen is extremely violent and produces a lot of heat (Hindenburg). To get any usable water out of this process, the resulting reaction would certainly cook the earth or the atmosphere. This reaction would also take energy to get it going. If this reaction took place close to the surface, it would ignite the world (and any wooden arks around). (Breathing becomes even harder with low oxygen, high pressure, and high temperature)

5) After the reaction, we have a extremely heated super saturated atmosphere full of super heated steam, which as it condensed, would again, suck a lot of heat out of the atmosphere.

So as I see it, there would be several extreme cycles of cold/hot generated by this process. If this model is to hold any credibility, it would be encouraging to see the mathematics dealing with the energy involved to see if it is even plausible or possible for this transformation to occur.

These problems don't deal with the issues of having a hydrogen canopy in the first place (which have been discussed elsewhere) but only deal with problems of energy if it was used to create liquid water.

This model seems less credible than the water canopy model.

Frumious Bandersnatch · #2 17th April 2003, 10:48 AM

This solid hdyrogen firmament has to rate near the top of ridiculous ideas coming from YECs and that is really saying something.  Whether burning it to form water would cook the earth to death depends on how much there was. You obviously can't get a signficant amount of global rain this way without releasing enough heat to cook the earth to death but I am not sure it is really postulated as a source of water and I don't have time to look that up right now. It doesn't matter anyway because the whole thing is physically absurd.  Here is essentially what I wrote in my last post on it on the fun with flood math thread.

The whole silly hydrogen firmament idea seems to come from Carl Baugh and even AiG says it is nonsense. When AiG, prime purveyors of YEC nonsense themselves say that something promoted by another YEC is nonsense you know it's really  nonsense.  Here's a reference.

target=_blank>http://members.aol.com/Paluxy2/whatbau.htm

Arguments by Baugh are on AiG's shouldn't use list.

target=_blank>http://www.answersingenesis.org/Hom...aq/dont_use.asp

Even so I have been investigating this a little further since the phase behavior of hydrogen is itself of interest.  We need to distinguish the known and postulated phases of hydrogen and their behavior to understand these arguments. Of course we all know hydrogen gas and have heard of liquid hydrogen. Crystalline hydrogen  is also known. Crystalline hydrogen exists only at low temperatures. Its melting point is 14 K or 14 degrees above absolute zero. Hydrogen boils at 20K at 1 atm.  

Crystalline hydrogen is transparent and it is a semiconductor, meaning that it has high electrical resistence. However, the phase behavior of crystalline hydrogen is also known so it is known that a "firmament" of crystalline hydrogen surrounding the earth is not physically possible.  The triple point of hydrogen is about 14 K at 0.07 atmospheres. At the triple point gas, liquid and crystalline solid are in equilibrium.  At lower pressures or higher temperatures the liquid or the gas phase prevails depending on T and P.

target=_blank>http://www.trgn.com/database/cryogen.html

The metallic hydrogen that has been produced in laboratory experiments and thought to exist at the center of jupiter is liquid metallic hyrogen. It can only exist at high pressure and will instantly evaporate when the pressure is released. Of course any liquid boils in the vacuum of space and and many solids will sublime in vacuum as in freeze drying. 

The minimum temperature of the ionosphere, where this firmament is supposed to have existed is about 133 K, far above boiling point of hydrogen at 1 atmosphere and the pressure is far below the triple point pressure.  From about 100 km on up the temperature of the upper atmosphere actually increases as the thermosphere is approached and entered. If the hydrogen firmament was located 100 mile up, it was in fairly warm spot with very low pressure and it would boil away to gas very rapidly.  Anywhere you put it crystalline hydrogen will disappear pretty fast if not under pressure because of sublimation.   The thermosphere is really quite hot and extends to about 600 km above the earth

target=_blank>http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/atmos_struct.html 

http://www.schooltv.com/thermosphere.htm

It may be possible to produce solid metallic hydrogen. The group discussed at the link below produced an opaque material at about 320 GPa (about 3 million atmopheres) that was said to be stable if the pressure stayed above 160 GPa but the material was still a semi-conductor.
target=_blank>http://physicsweb.org/article/news/6/4/6
They predict it might become metallic at about 4.5 million atmospheres.

There is speculation that solid metallic hyrogen might be metastable. Perhaps it could continue to exist, if once formed at least below certain tempertures.  No one knows if this is true but I rather doubt that it would continue to exist unless pressure are kept high and temperatures kept low.  Metastable phases exist, for example crystalline polymorphic phases that form during rapid freezing of some materials but I don't see how a metastable solid phase of an element could continue to exists hundreds of degrees above the melting and boiling points of the element. If a metastable solid hydrogen did exist I would think it would be highly unstable. However, from the phase properties of cyrstalline hydrogen it is quite clear that a crystalline hydrogen "firmament" as speculated about on the web page that Look linked to, would not be stable.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

look · #3 18th April 2003, 12:57 AM

Today at 09:48 AM Frumious Bandersnatch said this in Post #2

This solid hdyrogen firmament has to rate near the top of ridiculous ideas coming from YECs and that is really saying something.  Whether burning it to form water would cook the earth to death depends on how much there was. You obviously can't get a signficant amount of global rain this way without releasing enough heat to cook the earth to death but I am not sure it is really postulated as a source of water and I don't have time to look that up right now. It doesn't matter anyway because the whole thing is physically absurd.  Here is essentially what I wrote in my last post on it on the fun with flood math thread.

The whole silly hydrogen firmament idea seems to come from Carl Baugh and even AiG says it is nonsense. When AiG, prime purveyors of YEC nonsense themselves say that something promoted by another YEC is nonsense you know it's really  nonsense.  Here's a reference.

target=_blank>http://members.aol.com/Paluxy2/whatbau.htm

Arguments by Baugh are on AiG's shouldn't use list.

target=_blank>http://www.answersingenesis.org/Hom...aq/dont_use.asp

Even so I have been investigating this a little further since the phase behavior of hydrogen is itself of interest.  We need to distinguish the known and postulated phases of hydrogen and their behavior to understand these arguments. Of course we all know hydrogen gas and have heard of liquid hydrogen. Crystalline hydrogen  is also known. Crystalline hydrogen exists only at low temperatures. Its melting point is 14 K or 14 degrees above absolute zero. Hydrogen boils at 20K at 1 atm.  

Crystalline hydrogen is transparent and it is a semiconductor, meaning that it has high electrical resistence. However, the phase behavior of crystalline hydrogen is also known so it is known that a "firmament" of crystalline hydrogen surrounding the earth is not physically possible.  The triple point of hydrogen is about 14 K at 0.07 atmospheres. At the triple point gas, liquid and crystalline solid are in equilibrium.  At lower pressures or higher temperatures the liquid or the gas phase prevails depending on T and P.

target=_blank>http://www.trgn.com/database/cryogen.html

The metallic hydrogen that has been produced in laboratory experiments and thought to exist at the center of jupiter is liquid metallic hyrogen. It can only exist at high pressure and will instantly evaporate when the pressure is released. Of course any liquid boils in the vacuum of space and and many solids will sublime in vacuum as in freeze drying. 

The minimum temperature of the ionosphere, where this firmament is supposed to have existed is about 133 K, far above boiling point of hydrogen at 1 atmosphere and the pressure is far below the triple point pressure.  From about 100 km on up the temperature of the upper atmosphere actually increases as the thermosphere is approached and entered. If the hydrogen firmament was located 100 mile up, it was in fairly warm spot with very low pressure and it would boil away to gas very rapidly.  Anywhere you put it crystalline hydrogen will disappear pretty fast if not under pressure because of sublimation.   The thermosphere is really quite hot and extends to about 600 km above the earth

target=_blank>http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/atmos_struct.html 

http://www.schooltv.com/thermosphere.htm

It may be possible to produce solid metallic hydrogen. The group discussed at the link below produced an opaque material at about 320 GPa (about 3 million atmopheres) that was said to be stable if the pressure stayed above 160 GPa but the material was still a semi-conductor.
target=_blank>http://physicsweb.org/article/news/6/4/6
They predict it might become metallic at about 4.5 million atmospheres.

There is speculation that solid metallic hyrogen might be metastable. Perhaps it could continue to exist, if once formed at least below certain tempertures.  No one knows if this is true but I rather doubt that it would continue to exist unless pressure are kept high and temperatures kept low.  Metastable phases exist, for example crystalline polymorphic phases that form during rapid freezing of some materials but I don't see how a metastable solid phase of an element could continue to exists hundreds of degrees above the melting and boiling points of the element. If a metastable solid hydrogen did exist I would think it would be highly unstable. However, from the phase properties of cyrstalline hydrogen it is quite clear that a crystalline hydrogen "firmament" as speculated about on the web page that Look linked to, would not be stable.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

Whatsamatter? Of course using today's technology it is impossible to have crystalline Hydrogen to use for a canopy, but what's impossible today, may be possible tomorrow.

As a question, what would you use to make a Dyson sphere? Just curious...

How about a ring world?

Mechanical Bliss · #4 18th April 2003, 01:08 AM

This has less to do with technology available than it is the physical properties of matter which render this model an impossibility.

Frumious Bandersnatch · #5 18th April 2003, 09:40 AM

Whatsamatter? Of course using today's technology it is impossible to have crystalline Hydrogen to use for a canopy, but what's impossible today, may be possible tomorrow.

Did you actually read my post? As MB has pointed out it is the physical properties of crystalline hydrogen that make this impossible. Crystalline hydrogen is known and can be studied. It has a melting temperature of only a few degrees above absolute zero and if it did exist above the earth it would either melt and boil away or quickly sublime away. The solid hydrogen firmament is impossible.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

ikester7579 · #6 18th April 2003, 10:07 AM

Here's the machine that the metallic hydrogen was made in. The only problem I see with this is they could not reproduce what it would have been like in the upper atmosphere. Tempature, magnetic field etc.. Heres the link on what they did and how they did it. http://www-phys.llnl.gov/H_Div/GG/metalhydrofact.html I take from reading it that they just wanted to see if it could be done. Other experiments would have to be done to see if they can get it to hold together after the pressure drops. Also how can it be suspended with out crushing everything? Would it be effected by a magnetic field in our upper atmosphere? I wonder if they tried reducing pressure and applying sub zero temps? Maybe it does the same thing in low tempature and low pressure.

 Now it's already known that the barometric pressure was twice that(before the flood) of what it is today. Also oxygen and CO2 was twice as much. This was proven when some air pockets in some rock was found and a probe was inserted to take a sample of the air pocket and in each case it was the same results. And no this was not done by Mr. Baugh. I found this information while doing a search. I can look it back up if you need a link to read it.

notto · #7 18th April 2003, 10:16 AM

But what good does a hydrogen canopy do for flood theories? Converting a large enough amount of hydrogen to water in any amount large enough to affect flood calculations would be disasterous to the atmosphere and the earth itself. The energy transfers would be disasterous and leave the atmosphere depleated in oxygen, full of steam, and HOT.

This is just another ad-hoc explaination that is lacking in both scientific and scriptural support. Why not just stick with "God made the water". It is more credible both scientifically and scripturally. Miracles are more probable than impossibilities.

ikester7579 · #8 18th April 2003, 10:43 AM

Question to be answered:

1. How was the hydrogen formed in the upper atmosphere?

2. How was it sustained?

3. How did it stay suspended in our atmosphere?

4. Would light pass through it?

5. How would enough pressure be produced to create this?

Some answers that bring up more questions:

1. I look in God's word and found that the earth was created before light was introduced. Which would mean that one of the conditions was met in the creation model to form the metallic hydrogen. Sub zero tempatures. 

2. Not sure, but I would like to see if a lower air pressure would recreate this metallic like substance. I also think that the magnetic field would have something to do with it holding together, since it would have had to stretch all around the earth.

3. Not sure, but the rotation of the earth had something to do with it. For if you stop the rotation of the earth the satalites in orbit would crash to earth.

4. Yes. Most metal in their purest form are transparent in thin sheets. Like the Gold used on a astronaut's sun visor for his helmet. It's 24k gold in a thin layer.

5. I have rattled my brain with this one. Which brought me to a question. If the earth was not spining, how would that effect everything as we know it now. Because when the earth was created does not mean it was spining yet which could have produced this pressure. Then when the earth started spining this metallic hydrogen would have been lifted up and out to the upper atmosphere. Which poses another question. Did the earth spin faster back then? This may explain why people lived longer back then because their days may not have been 24 hours.

ikester7579 · #9 18th April 2003, 10:47 AM

Today at 09:16 AM notto said this in Post #7

But what good does a hydrogen canopy do for flood theories? Converting a large enough amount of hydrogen to water in any amount large enough to affect flood calculations would be disasterous to the atmosphere and the earth itself. The energy transfers would be disasterous and leave the atmosphere depleated in oxygen, full of steam, and HOT.

This is just another ad-hoc explaination that is lacking in both scientific and scriptural support. Why not just stick with "God made the water". It is more credible both scientifically and scripturally. Miracles are more probable than impossibilities.

Did not know we were talking about the flood? And I tried to stay away from it in my answers. But if you insist we can but for now lets try to stick with the subject.

MartinM · #10 19th April 2003, 08:09 AM

Yesterday at 02:43 PM ikester7579 said this in Post #8 I look in God's word and found that the earth was created before light was introduced. Which would mean that one of the conditions was met in the creation model to form the metallic hydrogen. Sub zero tempatures. 

But it would have to remain unbelievably cold even after the Sun was created. No chance.

Not sure, but I would like to see if a lower air pressure would recreate this metallic like substance. I also think that the magnetic field would have something to do with it holding together, since it would have had to stretch all around the earth

The magnetic field is rather puny, relative to the insane pressures required.

Not sure, but the rotation of the earth had something to do with it. For if you stop the rotation of the earth the satalites in orbit would crash to earth

...eh, no they wouldn't. Who told you that?

Yes. Most metal in their purest form are transparent in thin sheets. Like the Gold used on a astronaut's sun visor for his helmet. It's 24k gold in a thin layer

Perhaps, but if it were that thin there wouldn't be that much of it in the first place, which rather defeats the purpose, no?

I have rattled my brain with this one. Which brought me to a question. If the earth was not spining, how would that effect everything as we know it now. Because when the earth was created does not mean it was spining yet which could have produced this pressure. Then when the earth started spining this metallic hydrogen would have been lifted up and out to the upper atmosphere. Which poses another question. Did the earth spin faster back then? This may explain why people lived longer back then because their days may not have been 24 hours.

We're talking 3 million atmospheres here. I don't think you realise quite how extreme that is.