Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
Ya know, evolution is agnostic... you can look at it merely as the way God works, much like I do.
Either that, or he did great the earth is 6 days, but put all this evidence here to confound us.
Also, Buck72, Hovind is a liar. For instance, his Ph.D, is questionable at best, his claims are lies, his ministry is a lie. When everyone including the leading creationist sites claim he's a looney, he's a looney. It's basically the duck theory. If it moves, quacks, and acts like a duck, it's a duck.
There's a bunch of links which I don't have on me that explain this better than I can. Post this in the Science, Creation, and Evolution forum and see how fast Hovind is torn to pieces.
I should not, however, that if he has brought people to God, that's great and all, but that doesn't make him any more truthful.
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"Arguing with idiots is like banging your head on a rock. All you end up with is a headache and nothing to show for it." - Brian H. West (1986-?)
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I may have discovered the problem you all have with Hovind...he makes evolution look stupid
No, he makes his own cartoon version of evolution look stupid. And he needs to lie to do it.
I must ask, how many of you folks here actually believe in evolution?
I accept the theory of evolution as fact.
I defended a man who is railed against without cause other than a host of staunch accusations that he is a "liar", but there seems to be an evidence deficit.
You want more evidence? Fine.
The Smithsonian Institute has 33,000 sets of human remains in their basement right now as you are reading this. Many of them were taken while the people were still alive. They were so desperate to find missing links, so desperate to prove their theory that they murdered people to prove it. - Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 4 - a transcript of Kent Hovind's early sermons circa 1996.
This is a lie. The Smithsonian never killed anyone; they acquired the corpses of native peoples who were already being killed. Horrible indeed, but not what he explains here. Also, the acquiring of the bones had far more to do with a fear that the natives were going to be extinct soon than trying to "prove" evolution. I have no idea how the bones of aboriginal peoples would validate evolution.
Here is a detailed explanation of another Hovind lie.
The tiny horse comparison seems hysterical enough, I'm certain there is more to it than you presented troodon. I'll look into it with the whole story instead of some unsubstantiated snippet from "google.com"
"Some museums exclude Eohippus entirely because it is identical to the rabbit-like hyrax (daman) now living in Africa"
Also, the fact that this can be shown false by a simple google search shows how little he cares about lying; it shows how much research he thinks his followers will do into his claims.
AiG seems to find fault with him, but suprise, they are an "interpretive" biblical research ministry while Hovind is "literal". AiG does not take the word of God literally, they feel it needs to be interpreted.
What does AiG not interpret literally?
Okay - that settles the LIAR thing.
lol, only if you admit that he lies.
Now let's start a thread about literal verses interpretive, we'll have plenty to go for that one I'm sure.
go right ahead
I do not agree with many of you, nor will you agree with me, but that doesn't make any of us liars outright does it?
None of us have called you a liar because we have no evidence to support such a claim. This is not true of Hovind.
Now, I do have a bone to pick with evolution, so indulge me in a small rant:
If you guys are so sold on evolution and can beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt prove it...
Science cannot prove anything. We accept evolution because it is the only theory that explains all the evidence.
Prove it
. I dare you...start another thread, I'll be happy to indulge you with backwards ideas that God actually created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal days, the flood, etc. I'm game.
Did someone else say this to you? I'm confused.
Evolution is a destructive theory that has fostered a fanatical cult following of people that hate God
I do not hate God, I love Him.
and despise any form of biblical counsel. It is as religious as it claims to be scientific.
Is forensic science a "religion" as well?
It is the most magnificent lie of our time
Nope, YEC is the lie buddy.
and oh how many turn their backs to God to induldge in its sweet offer to "have it your way". Evolution is a backstage pass to sin without consequence. Why not support it? Hey I can live life to the fullest without all of the obedience to some "imaginary" God that those dumb creationists argue made this place.
What are you talking about? Evolution does not remove the evil that is sin. Evolution does nothing to disprove God. Evolution does nothing to disprove God. I believe in the same God that you do despite my acceptance of evolution. It is not our fault that you think using a disproved theory is a good way to evangelize; that's your fault and I'm sorry you're so bad at discussing your faith that you have to use it.
Hovind has a successful, soul-winning ministry.
The ends do not justify the means. As I said earlier, a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
I have many family, and friends that actually have brains capable of critical, scientific thought, who have either renewed or found faith through Hovind's efforts.
Because you have not looked at all the evidence. Here are *some* of the falsifications of YEC:
Please use your mind (which is capable of critical thinking) to open your eyes.
This guy isn't scamming people, he really cares about people.
IMO, Hovind does truly care about his followers. He cares so much about their souls that he is willing to lie to them to save them. I think that is wrong, others may disagree.
He cares about science.
No, he cares about looking scientific. That's why he got his undeserved Ph.D.
He is by no means without flaw, who the heck is?
I don't think anyone expects him to be.
See, here's the rub. Have you noticed that none of us are calling ICR or AiG liars? That's because they aren't. Promoting YEC does not necessarily make one a liar. Hovind is a special case in which lies are routinely used to promote his beliefs.
But he is living a brighter life for Christ than most of us
I wouldn't say that...
Who are you? And troodon - come on.
Who am I? I am a sinner, I am a college student, I am an aspiring student of paleontology. I am most importantly a Christian. I do not dispise Hovind, I believe him to be sincere, but I dispise what he does to people. Lies are never a good thing, no matter how many souls they win.
Evolutionists rebuffed by Peter:
2Pe 3:3-7 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Yes, or you could actually read that the way it was meant to be read and see that he's talking about unbelievers. Why do you pervert the Bible like this?
"Willingly ignorant" means "Stupid on purpose"
Yes, YECs I know; I know.
Edit: I have no idea why the second half of my post looks like this.
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"Creationists are going to distort whatever arguments come up.... Archaeopteryx is half reptile and half bird any way you cut the deck, and so it is a Rosetta stone for evolution, whether it is related to dinosaurs or not. These creationists are confusing an argument about minor details of evolution with the indisputable fact of evolution."
-Dr. Alan Feduccia, in an interview with Discover magazine
Last edited by troodon; 18th October 2003 at 12:54 AM.
Wow troodon - you claim to love God and yet you openly despise His word, even disregarding the flood that left its scars on every mountain pass, valley and ocean flloor? How can you love God and hate the word? Is your science superior to God's word? I give Hovind credit because he makes sense on both fields. I do not accept that God is in one corner, while science contends with him in another.
Get a grip - please. You've been brainwashed by evolution to the point its is the only lens that you can see from.
Let's observe your remarkable debate skills:
Why do you pervert the Bible like this?
HOW CAN YOU ACCUSE ME OF "PERVERTING THE BIBLE" WHEN I MERELY QUOTED IT? YOU DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS PAL; OH WAIT:
YOU ARE TOO BUSY CARVING OUT THE PARTS THAT DON'T MESH WITH YOUR EVOLUTION T-H-E-O-R-Y.
Now if I were a "scientist" like you, I would call THAT perverting the Bible!
Best wishes troodon - I wish you well in your pursuits...you'll hopefully figure it all out someday.
Wow troodon - you claim to love God and yet you openly despise His word
Putting words in my mouth which you know to be untrue. Thank you very much.
even disregarding the flood that left its scars on every mountain pass, valley and ocean flloor?
What flood? If you would actually look at the evidence you would see there was no flood.
How can you love God and hate the word?
I do not hate the Bible, I merely understand what it was given to us for.
Is your science superior to God's word?
The enormous amount of science we have disproving a young earth is superior to that interpretation of the Bible.
Get a grip - please. You've been brainwashed by evolution to the point its is the only lens that you can see from.
I love rhetoric too but let's try and stay focused here.
HOW CAN YOU ACCUSE ME OF "PERVERTING THE BIBLE" WHEN I MERELY QUOTED IT? YOU DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS PAL
You're lying; I guess Hovind is infectious. You said Peter was talking about evolutionists in that quote (which is drawing a conclusion if I'm not mistaken) and in order to come to that conclusion you have to absolutely ignore what that passage was written about; unbelievers.
OH WAIT:
YOU ARE TOO BUSY CARVING OUT THE PARTS THAT DON'T MESH WITH YOUR EVOLUTION T-H-E-O-R-Y.
I don't carve out anything of the Bible; mine contains the exact same books as yours (unless you're Catholic which I doubt because Hovind hates Catholics as much as the KKK does). You see, unlike you, I do not read the Bible in some bland "everything must be literal" manner because it is not written like that. Genesis 2 could not possibly scream allegory more. Come on man, the "tree of knowledge"? Only "Pilgrim's Progress" approaches Genesis 2 for obvious allegory.
Best wishes troodon - I wish you well in your pursuits...you'll hopefully figure it all out someday.
Thanks, I hope you stop worshiping the Bible someday.
That was cool how you completely ignored that evidence. You didn't even acknowledge its existance!
I laughed
Edit to add: and it was cool how you completely ignored the examples of Hovind's lies. Although I didn't laugh at that
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"Creationists are going to distort whatever arguments come up.... Archaeopteryx is half reptile and half bird any way you cut the deck, and so it is a Rosetta stone for evolution, whether it is related to dinosaurs or not. These creationists are confusing an argument about minor details of evolution with the indisputable fact of evolution."
-Dr. Alan Feduccia, in an interview with Discover magazine
Last edited by troodon; 18th October 2003 at 01:34 AM.
I may have discovered the problem you all have with Hovind...he makes evolution look stupid. I must ask, how many of you folks here actually believe in evolution?
Ever watch a political comedian make a joke that makes your political party look stupid? It happens all the time. They usually come off as being right on the mark, and get overwhelming audience aplause and laughter. Why? Because most in the audience are pre-disposed to believing that the other political party is stupid. But, if you to pick apart everything in the 'joke', you see many flaws in logic and accuracy. To some Christians, Hovind makes evolution look stupid. Why? Because the audience is already pre-disposed to believing that evolution is stupid. But, once his claims are closely examined and scrutinized, you will find many flaws in his logic and accuracy.
I believe that God created everything. The how's, the mechanisms, and the specifics are what we are looking at here.
If you guys are so sold on evolution and can beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt prove it...
Prove it. I dare you...start another thread, I'll be happy to indulge you with backwards ideas that God actually created the heavens and the earth in 6 literal days, the flood, etc. I'm game.
The overwhelming evidence, from a wide variety of scientific disciplines, has already proven that the earth is not nearly as young as Hovind claims. The burden of proof is on you to come up with a better explaination for the diversity of life. Keep in mind, the Nobel Prize is yours for the taking if you can overturn hundreds of thousands of scientific studies, from a span of more than 150 years, from scientists in a wide variety of disciplines, from all over the world, with different religious beliefs....many who are Christians.
Evolution is a destructive theory that has fostered a fanatical cult following of people that hate God and despise any form of biblical counsel. It is as religious as it claims to be scientific.
I don't hate God. I love the Lord with all my heart, my mind and my soul. The scientists who are also Christians don't hate God. The Christians who believe that God created the diversity of life through an evolutionary process don't hate God. We may be all wrong about this, and we are willing to admit if we are, but this don't mean we hate God.
It is the most magnificent lie of our time and oh how many turn their backs to God to induldge in its sweet offer to "have it your way". Evolution is a backstage pass to sin without consequence. Why not support it? Hey I can live life to the fullest without all of the obedience to some "imaginary" God that those dumb creationists argue made this place.
How so?
Evolutionists rebuffed by Peter:
2Pe 3:3-7 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
"Willingly ignorant" means "Stupid on purpose"
You will be hard pressed to convince anyone that the scientific community, and especially all the advances in medical biology, are based on "Stupidity on purpose".
Bottom line, if you are going to stick with a literal interpretation of scripture, that's fine. Just say that you believe this, or don't belive that, because the Bible tells you so, and end it with that. I'll respect that.
But, if you decide to make science prove things for you, there are some serious obstacles in front of you. The ToE may have a few unresolved issues, but as a whole, it stands up to the most ardent scrutiny. 'Scientific Creationism' is nothing but unresolved issues, and falls flat on it's face.
Last edited by TheBear; 18th October 2003 at 02:02 AM.
Buck72, you've degenerated this into a screaming match.
Well Bushido that was not my intent, and I aologize for allowing myself the indulgence of irritation by folks that refuse to so much as acknowledge the word and still, for reasons I cannot undertsand, manage to call themselves "christian".
I will confess this: I did not realize I had wandered into an evolutionist forum - whoops. I wan't looking to pick a fight, I merely expressed justifiable concern when a fellow brother in Christ was being lambasted a liar. If you wouldn't mind backing up a few pages, you'll see that I took the posture of calling folks out for mob-like lynching behavior toward a brother that has proven himself over and over to be a fellow heir worthy of simple professional, let alone spiritual, Christ-like courtesy.
Who needs to grow up Bushido? Maybe you guys ought to wander over to the YEC forums?
And yes, wblastyn, thankyou for keeping me honest. I do know what a theory is. Theory and fact are not the same. Evolution was theory (still is as far as I can tell) until it began to replace any refernece to creation in the textbooks, science journals, and universities. It is a public, tangible platform for man to deny God. How can I be making this up? I have better things to do with my time.
A singular fact that a theory cannot answer, disqualies that theory. ie: The Geologic Column. It has never been observed anywhere in the natural realm other than museums (carefully contructed by artists) and textbooks. Many evolutionists know this theory is garbage, but it is still commonly used to date fossils according to the strata they are discovered in, and likewise the strata is dated by the fossils...whoa. Somebody is lying.
The earth's magnetic field is decaying (it used to be stronger - how strong could it have been to support life?), the lunar orbit (it's getting further away...it used to be closer - how close? The tides alone would have been disasterous 20,000 years ago) these are just a couple...there are many, I'll get more into later in another forum. I'll stick around your forum if you do not mind.
Bottom line: I wasn't making an effort to turn this into a screaming match. Why don't you ask troodon was his intentions were - oh wait, he's an evolutionist - you guys have to keep tight and collectively harangue and slander the YEC guy. Are you guys by chance, Democrats?
Last edited by Buck72; 18th October 2003 at 04:24 PM.
I will confess this: I did not realize I had wandered into an evolutionist forum - whoops
Was that supposed to be an insult?
I wan't looking to pick a fight, I merely expressed justifiable concern when a fellow brother in Christ was being lambasted a liar.
Yes, allegations which you have yet to refute.
Maybe you guys ought to wander over to the YEC forums?
What YEC forums? The only "YEC forum" I've ever seen was in the habit of banning evolutionists.
Theory and fact are not the same. Evolution was theory (still is as far as I can tell)
It is theory in the same way that general relativity is a theory. It is supported by mounds of evidence but there is always the possibility that it doesn't work in all cases.
[qutoe]until it began to replace any refernece to creation in the textbooks, science journals, and universities.[/quote] ROFL, creation was never in textbooks or science journals; it was falsified long before Nature or Science came around.
It is a public, tangible platform for man to deny God.
No, it is the only possible explanation for the diversity of life we see on the planet.
How can I be making this up?
It's not that hard. I think Creationism is a much greater threat to Christianity because it demands its followers not only disregard scientific evidence but also believe in a God that wants the world to disagree with him.
A singular fact that a theory cannot answer, disqualies that theory. ie: The Geologic Column. It has never been observed anywhere in the natural realm
other than museums (carefully contructed by artists) and textbooks.
Got any pictures we can look at? I've never seen an artist's rendering of the entire geologic column.
Many evolutionists know this theory is garbage
Unsupported generalization. Thank you, come again!
but it is still commonly used to date fossils according to the strata they are discovered in, and likewise the strata is dated by the fossils...whoa. Somebody is lying.
This is patently false. Radiometric dating is almost always the final answer in how old strata is (I say 'almost' even though I've never heard of instances where it wasn't). I will provide an example. In 1997 Chinese paleontologists began excavating the Yixian in Northern China. Based on what they were seeing (primitive birds, small Compsagnathan theropods, and dinosaurs with bristle-like feathers) they estimated the date to be in the late Jurassic. But, then to double check the date, they K-Ar dated it. The result was early Cretaceous. That strata is to this day dated as early Cretaceous. Your claim is false.
The earth's magnetic field is decaying (it used to be stronger - how strong could it have been to support life?), the lunar orbit (it's getting further away...it used to be closer - how close?
I'll get more into later in another forum. I'll stick around your forum if you do not mind.
Come on back, by all means.
Why don't you ask troodon was his intentions were
What do you mean my intentions. Last time I checked you have yet to respond to either the examples of Hovind's lies or the evidence falsifying a young earth. My intentions are to rid the world of the social disease of YEC; a lofty goal
oh wait, he's an evolutionist - you guys have to keep tight and collectively harangue and slander the YEC guy.
Where were you slandered?
Are you guys by chance, Democrats?
Our political affiliations are not at issue here.
__________________
"Creationists are going to distort whatever arguments come up.... Archaeopteryx is half reptile and half bird any way you cut the deck, and so it is a Rosetta stone for evolution, whether it is related to dinosaurs or not. These creationists are confusing an argument about minor details of evolution with the indisputable fact of evolution."
-Dr. Alan Feduccia, in an interview with Discover magazine
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