Calling all Bible literalists...

Nathan Poe · #1 10th April 2003, 10:54 PM

To all those who follow the Bible above all things (especially in matters of creation), I feel like giving you a little Thomas Paine to munch on.

From The Age of Reason, part 1, Chapter 9, "In What the True Revelation Consists,"

BUT some perhaps will say--Are we to have no word of God --no revelation? I answer yes. There is a Word of God; there is a revelation.

THE WORD OF GOD IS THE CREATION WE BEHOLD: And it is in this word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man.

Human language is local and changeable, and is therefore incapable of being used as the means of unchangeable and universal information. The idea that God sent Jesus Christ to publish, as they say, the glad tidings to all nations, from one end of the earth unto the other, is consistent only with the ignorance of those who know nothing of the extent of the world, and who believed, as those world-saviours believed, and continued to believe for several centuries, (and that in contradiction to the discoveries of philosophers and the experience of navigators,) that the earth was flat like a trencher; and that a man might walk to the end of it.

But how was Jesus Christ to make anything known to all nations? He could speak but one language, which was Hebrew; and there are in the world several hundred languages. Scarcely any two nations speak the same language, or understand each other; and as to translations, every man who knows anything of languages, knows that it is impossible to translate from one language into another, not only without losing a great part of the original, but frequently of mistaking the sense; and besides all this, the art of printing was wholly unknown at the time Christ lived.

It is always necessary that the means that are to accomplish any end be equal to the accomplishment of that end, or the end cannot be accomplished. It is in this that the difference between finite and infinite power and wisdom discovers itself. Man frequently fails in accomplishing his end, from a natural inability of the power to the purpose; and frequently from the want of wisdom to apply power properly. But it is impossible for infinite power and wisdom to fail as man faileth. The means it useth are always equal to the end: but human language, more especially as there is not an universal language, is incapable of being used as an universal means of unchangeable and uniform information; and therefore it is not the means that God useth in manifesting himself universally to man.

It is only in the CREATION that all our ideas and conceptions of a word of God can unite. The Creation speaketh an universal language, independently of human speech or human language, multiplied and various as they be. It is an ever existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God.

Do we want to contemplate his power? We see it in the immensity of the creation. Do we want to contemplate his wisdom? We see it in the unchangeable order by which the incomprehensible Whole is governed. Do we want to contemplate his munificence? We see it in the abundance with which he fills the earth. Do we want to contemplate his mercy? We see it in his not withholding that abundance even from the unthankful. In fine, do we want to know what God is? Search not the book called the scripture, which any human hand might make, but the scripture called the Creation.

Any thoughts?

Follower of Christ · #2 10th April 2003, 11:01 PM

Sounds like he lived by sight and not by faith to me.

Micaiah · #3 11th April 2003, 01:57 AM

How can a person believe the message of salvation if they haven't heard. Creation gives the uninformed the truth that God exists, and demonstrates His power. Sadly, many choose to suppress that truth. Scripture, not creation, tells gospel message.

Follower of Christ · #4 11th April 2003, 12:11 PM

Today at 12:57 AM Micaiah said this in Post #3

How can a person believe the message of salvation if they haven't heard. Creation gives the uninformed the truth that God exists, and demonstrates His power. Sadly, many choose to suppress that truth. Scripture, not creation, tells gospel message.

Creation doesnt imply any rules or obligations to the Creator.
No bible, No rules.
I'd say thats why so many want to look to the creation instead of the Bible.

straightforward · #5 11th April 2003, 12:25 PM

Isn't it interesting that even though Jesus 'only spoke one language' and 'there was no printing at the time of Christ' and the concept of the 'world' was limitied to men at the time....the gospel is all over the globe now? Isn't that interesting? According to the above quote it sounds impossible...yet it happens!

Taffsadar · #6 11th April 2003, 12:55 PM

Today at 04:25 PM straightforward said this in Post #5

Isn't it interesting that even though Jesus 'only spoke one language' and 'there was no printing at the time of Christ' and the concept of the 'world' was limitied to men at the time....the gospel is all over the globe now? Isn't that interesting? According to the above quote it sounds impossible...yet it happens!

Or technology has improved since then. To bad little Joey who lived in 5th centuary South America wasn't reached by it...

JohnR7 · #7 11th April 2003, 01:00 PM

Today at 11:55 AM Taffsadar said this in Post #6
Or technology has improved since then. To bad little Joey who lived in 5th centuary South America wasn't reached by it...

Where is your evidence for that? There has never been a generation that did not get the gospel out to the whole world.

Nathan Poe · #8 11th April 2003, 01:15 PM

Today at 11:11 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #4

Creation doesnt imply any rules or obligations to the Creator.
No bible, No rules.
I'd say thats why so many want to look to the creation instead of the Bible.

Of course there are rules! We call them laws of nature.

1. "Thou shalt not fly if thou jumps off a cliff."

2. "Thou shalt drown if thou does not swim."

3. "Thou shalt not tease the mountain lions."

et cetera.

If you're referring to moral rules, then you have a bit of a problem. Almost every immoral or abominable behavior you can imagine is performed at least once in the Bible, either under God's command, with God's blessing, or by God himself.

No two cultures, religions, societies, or denominations can determine for certain what the moral rules are. Even when they do, they change over time.
The laws of nature are far more constant than what we put into words. Gravity is still gravity no matter what you believe in.

So which message is more consistent with being "universal, eternal, and unchanging"?

Nathan Poe · #9 11th April 2003, 01:20 PM

Today at 11:25 AM straightforward said this in Post #5

Isn't it interesting that even though Jesus 'only spoke one language' and 'there was no printing at the time of Christ' and the concept of the 'world' was limitied to men at the time....the gospel is all over the globe now? Isn't that interesting? According to the above quote it sounds impossible...yet it happens!

Indeed! And despite the same problems, we also have The Illiad, The Odyssey, Oedipus Rex, Beowulf, The Canterbury Tales, and just about every great classic work written before the printing press was invented?

And none of these works had a horde of followers trying to convert people, yet here they are! Perhaps they were all inspired by God?

Osthuvud · #10 11th April 2003, 01:35 PM

Hey Nathan, interesting subject.

By the way, if Jesus spoke Hebrew, he was multilingual.  He spoke Aramaic for day-to-day communication.

Check out Romans 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Sorry, little Joey.