Creation, where's the Proof.

Nathan Poe · #**101** 6th April 2003, 01:36 PM

Today at 12:34 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #99

Now my turn to ask...

If you so easily walk away from GOD because of something ANY MAN says, who was your relationship with, God or man?

I never heard any voices or spoke in tongues, never expected to, never wanted to.

I suppose you could say that my sour relationship was with man.... starting with the Bible itself. A book written by men arrogant enough to claim that they got the info from God directly.

I follow Christ. I dont care what other christians are saying or teaching.
You dont think I have had my share of folks saying things I didnt like?
I chose to find out what God himself says, so should you.

My agnosticism gives me a great relationship with God: I don't bother Him; He doesn't bother me.

If He needs my help with something, then He knows how to get in touch with me in a way that can't possibly be misinterpreted. Far more efficient than thousands of years of mythology.

If I need His help with something, well, He'll know it before I do.

What more do I need?

Follower of Christ · #**102** 6th April 2003, 01:47 PM

Today at 01:36 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #101

I never heard any voices or spoke in tongues, never expected to, never wanted to.

I suppose you could say that my sour relationship was with man.... starting with the Bible itself. A book written by men arrogant enough to claim that they got the info from God directly.

My agnosticism gives me a great relationship with God: I don't bother Him; He doesn't bother me.

If He needs my help with something, then He knows how to get in touch with me in a way that can't possibly be misinterpreted. Far more efficient than thousands of years of mythology.

If I need His help with something, well, He'll know it before I do.

What more do I need?

I can see that you're going to be a hard one to convince.

Not to offend you but you probably never had a REAL relationship with God at all.
I am NOT a calvanist, so I do believe one can walk away from a true relationship with God, but your case seems to have been superficial.
(which means there is still lots of hope).

A true relationship will not require anything like tongues or the like.
Your thoughts on the Bible are quite disheartening as that is the foundation for our faith.

I still have hope, though.

Nathan Poe · #**103** 6th April 2003, 03:57 PM

Today at 01:47 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #102

I can see that you're going to be a hard one to convince.

But you can't convince me. Only God could do that. You said as much yourself.

And not to offend you, but if He so desired to convinve me, he'd send a more convincing messenger than you. A burning bush would be nice, a pillar of flame would be pretty cool. Heck, I'd settle for a good old-fashioned booming voice from the sky (assuming that there isn't a hidden speaker system). According to the Bible, God used to do that sort of thing all the time. Assuming the Bible is true, is it too much to ask for?

Not to offend you but you probably never had a REAL relationship with God at all.

No offense taken. Nope, never met Him personally. Or if I did, I wasn't aware of it. Perhaps He should have worn a name tag or something: "Hello, My name is: GOD"

The funny thing is that despite this, I've met so many people who claim to have special instructions directly from him, which they are more than happy to pass on to me.

God may or may not be real, but religion has and will always be a human institution. A hierarchy used by the few to control the many through fear and ignorance.

I'll pass.

I am NOT a calvanist, so I do believe one can walk away from a true relationship with God, but your case seems to have been superficial.
(which means there is still lots of hope).

If everything you know about God comes out of a book, then who's the superficial one?

A true relationship will not require anything like tongues or the like.

Good, because I really don't feel like learning a new language.

 

Your thoughts on the Bible are quite disheartening as that is the foundation for our faith.

It may be the foundation of your faith, but I thought that Christianity was based on the teachings of Christ (hence the name, Christianity).

It's unfortunate that the only source of those teachings is a collection of manuscripts and anecdotes that have been passed around for close to 2000 years, translated many times over (losing something in each translation), selected by vote, and used by various human institutions for social and political gain.

And yet, somehow it all managed to remain the literal, infallable, inspired word of God, right? And if you believe that, I'll introduce you to the tooth fairy.

No thanks. You keep worshipping your Bible; I'm more interested in Christ himself.

I still have hope, though.

As do I.

JohnR7 · #**104** 6th April 2003, 04:55 PM

Today at 03:57 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #103
A burning bush would be nice, a pillar of flame would be pretty cool. 

The Hebrews followed a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.

Now we have a better covenant. We can enter into the cloud and that is the presense of God. We can have the pillar of fire burning on the inside of us.

I know lots of people who are on fire for God. We are cleansed, but the fire of God purifys us.

So, if you want a pillar of flame, it is available to you. In fact it is required to be a child of God.

JohnR7 · #**105** 6th April 2003, 04:59 PM

Today at 03:57 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #103 It's unfortunate that the only source of those teachings is a collection of manuscripts and anecdotes that have been passed around for close to 2000 years, translated many times over (losing something in each translation), selected by vote, and used by various human institutions for social and political gain. 

Jesus came to fulfill all that was written about Him. The Bible is filled with referances to Jesus. There are lots of types in the Bible of Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Why is it you can read a secular book and get so much out of it. But you can not get just as much out of one to the stories in the Bible? It is pretty much the same thing.

 

Nathan Poe · #**106** 6th April 2003, 06:13 PM

Today at 04:55 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #104

The Hebrews followed a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.

Now we have a better covenant. We can enter into the cloud and that is the presense of God. We can have the pillar of fire burning on the inside of us.

I know lots of people who are on fire for God. We are cleansed, but the fire of God purifys us.

So, if you want a pillar of flame, it is available to you. In fact it is required to be a child of God.

you're speaking symbolically. But if the Bible is literally true, then I'm not out of line to ask for a real, actual pillar of fire to appear before me.

It doesn't even have to be a big one. 5-6 feet tall will suffice. Or am I asking too much from God?

Nathan Poe · #**107** 6th April 2003, 06:18 PM

Today at 04:59 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #105

Jesus came to fulfill all that was written about Him. The Bible is filled with referances to Jesus. There are lots of types in the Bible of Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Why is it you can read a secular book and get so much out of it. But you can not get just as much out of one to the stories in the Bible? It is pretty much the same thing.

But that's just it, John. I get exactly as much out of the Bible as I do out of a secular book. You're concerned that I don't get more out of your Holy Scripture.

I can gain some great ideas and insights from reading the Bible. I can gain as many ideas and insights out of the following works:

The Complete Works of WIlliam Shakespeare

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

The Catcher in the Rye

Brave New World

1984

Dracula

and last but not least, one of my all-time favorites,

Stranger in a Strange Land

And I am not obligated to believe that any of these works were inspired by an omnipotent supernatural being. Why should I believe the Bible to be? Because you say so? Because it says so?

lucaspa · #**108** 6th April 2003, 07:17 PM

Yesterday at 03:35 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #74

Classic case of twisting/distorting words agian.

I did NOT say God lies.

I have shown ACTUALL SCRIPTURAL PROOF that God will indeed send decieving spirits and influences to those already choosing to believe what they want over HIS truth.

Again. LOOK at 2 Thess. chap. 2 and 2 Chronicles chap. 18 if you want to see what our God will do to those refusing His wonderful truth.

My apologies, but how is "deceiving" different from "lying"?

Are you referring to II Thessalonians 2:11? "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." And what is "this cause"?

I presume you mean II Chronicles 18:22 (Micaiah speaking) "Now therefore, behold, the Lord hat put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee."

Now, the II Chronicles story doesn't help, since Ahab did believe God's truth, but God wanted him to die, so enticed him into a battle so he could die. 

However, I see the point of your argument now. Not wishing to accept that Creation really is from God, you have to find a way to discount all that evidence from Creation that falsifies creationism and supports evolution.  After all, it can't be you that is wrong. 

So, instead of admitting that your literal interpretation is wrong, you instead say that God deceives all those tens of thousands of honest, hard-working, Christian scientists who think they are discovering how God created.  Now God is a deceiver. And, of course, he is not sending deception to you for rejecting His Word in Creation, but to those who accept evolution.

Yes, it's all clear now.  In an effort to preserve literalism, you just destroyed all of Christianity. After all, perhaps God is also deceiving us about eternal life.  Maybe Jesus is one of those lying prophets.

Now do you see why I view creationism as the most dangerous enemy of Christianity around?

In 1848, when faced with a similar argument about God's deception, Rev. Charles Kingsley wrote: "you make God tell a lie.  It is not my reason, but my conscience which revolts here ... I cannot ...believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for all mankind.  To this painful dilemma you have brought me, and will, I fear, bring hundreds.  It will not make me throw away my Bible.  I trust and hope. I know in whom I have believed, and can trust Him to bring my faith safe through this puzzle, as He has through others; but for the young I do fear.  I would not for a thousand pounds put your book into my children's hands."

I wouldn't put your theology into any child's hands.

lucaspa · #**109** 6th April 2003, 07:20 PM

Yesterday at 03:59 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #76

God does NOT lie.

He either can send a decieving influence to those who refuse the truth, or He may harden or blind them further.
Romans 9 with Pharoah is another example.

II Chronicles uses the word "lying".  So what is the fine difference between "deceiving influence" and a lie?

lucaspa · #**110** 6th April 2003, 07:25 PM

Yesterday at 09:30 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #81

''And now, behold, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. And Jehovah has spoken evil against you. ''
(2 Chronicles 18:22 LITV)

And the prophet, if he is deceived, and he speaks a word, I, Jehovah, have deceived that prophet. And I will stretch out My hand on him and will destroy him from the midst of My people Israel.
(Ezekiel 14:9 LITV)

Great.  Yahweh first deceives a prophet and then destroys the prophet for being deceived.

You are doing a great job of convincing people that Yahweh is not a deity worthy of worship. After all, the above is a lose-lose situation.

Bear, do you have any mainstream Christian comment on this? The link to "commentary" to Biblical passages doesn't work.