Is Evolution Dagon worship revisited

Lanakila · #1 30th March 2003, 11:05 AM

This is controversial, and I was just trying to come up with another angle that I haven't seen discussed here. This is taken from a sermon by my hubby that he preached in Kuwait and sent to me.

Take, for instance, the Philistine’s worship of Dagon. This entity had the body of a fish and the head and hands of a human.

Dagon was originally worshipped as a deity by the ancient Canaanites but was later obtained by the Philistines. Samson eventually destroyed the Temple of Dagon in Gaza (Judges 16:30).

In a related context, an ancient Babylonian myth relates that a supernatural fish deity emerged from the Erythraean Sea who was thought to be a demigod of ancient Babylonian Culture.

Dagon, is thus an early representation of pantheism that perceived life to emerge from the watery abyssal of the primordial oceans.

CAN I SAY PRIMORDIAL SOUP.

Follower of Christ · #2 30th March 2003, 11:20 AM

Thats an odd one.
I was just going thru Romans 1, and was startled to see how Paul is presenting thier being consumed with the creation instead of the Creator.

I dont know where the line between admiration and worship is.
I am a little concerned that it may start when we begin to redefine His word.

This probably has no direct bearing, but it is quite intriguing;

"For God's wrath is revealed from Heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, holding the truth in unrighteousness, because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them. For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse. Because knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful. But they became vain in their reasonings, and their undiscerning heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became foolish and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into a likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. "
(Romans 1:18-23 LITV)

Frumious Bandersnatch · #3 30th March 2003, 11:24 AM

In a related context, an ancient Babylonian myth relates that a supernatural fish deity emerged from the Erythraean Sea who was thought to be a demigod of ancient Babylonian Culture.

Dagon, is thus an early representation of pantheism that perceived life to emerge from the watery abyssal of the primordial oceans.

So they had a primative myth similar to

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life. "

The Frumious Bandersnatch

Follower of Christ · #4 30th March 2003, 11:28 AM

Today at 10:24 AM Frumious Bandersnatch said this in Post #3

So they had a primative myth similar to

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life. "

The Frumious Bandersnatch

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. "
(Genesis 1:20 KJV)

I hardly see any connection

Frumious Bandersnatch · #5 30th March 2003, 11:42 AM

I hardly see any connection

You wouldn't. In Babylonian mythology life emerges from water and in Hebrew mythology God "brings forth" life from land and water. The Hebrews were held captive in Babylon so it should not be surprising that elements of Babylonian and Sumerian mythology such as life emerging from water, at least in some sense, became incorporated into their mythic traditions. What one person considers true religion may be considered primative superstition by another.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

Anthony · #6 30th March 2003, 11:46 AM

Today at 07:42 AM Frumious Bandersnatch said this in Post #5

The Hebrews were held captive in Babylon so it should not be surprising that elements of Babylonian and Sumerian mythology such as life emerging from water, at least in some sense, became incorporated into their mythic traditions.

Hmmm did Moses write the first books before or after he was captured and sent to Babylon. :rolleyes:

 

Follower of Christ · #7 30th March 2003, 12:01 PM

Today at 10:46 AM Anthony said this in Post #6

Hmmm did Moses write the first books before or after he was captured and sent to Babylon. :rolleyes:

 

Very good one.
This is a problem, because true secular historians will confirm(although I dont know how) that the Hebrews stole from other religions and refuse to see the possibilty that it could have been the other way around.

OH, maybe they're using that ''perfect'' dating method again or had a time machine. Who knows.

lucaspa · #8 30th March 2003, 12:21 PM

Today at 10:20 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #2

"For God's wrath is revealed from Heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, holding the truth in unrighteousness, because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them. For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse. Because knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful. But they became vain in their reasonings, and their undiscerning heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became foolish and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into a likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. "
(Romans 1:18-23 LITV)

The last sentence sounds like creationism.  Creationism is god-of-the-gaps theology.  Insert God into a place where there is no material connection between members of the universe. Such as between chemicals and life.

This reduces God to a member or creature of the universe.

I'd say Paul was advocating against creationism.

lucaspa · #9 30th March 2003, 12:31 PM

Today at 11:01 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #7

Very good one.
This is a problem, because true secular historians will confirm(although I dont know how) that the Hebrews stole from other religions and refuse to see the possibilty that it could have been the other way around.

OH, maybe they're using that ''perfect'' dating method again or had a time machine. Who knows.

First, the Biblical scholars dating the books of the Bible are not secular.  They are Jewish or Christian.  Trying to dismiss fellow Judeo-Christians who disagree with you by kicking them out of Judeo-Christianity simply isn't a valid argument.

The dating is quite simple. The Exodus had to have taken place around 1500 -1600 BC due to the timing of the Egyptian pharoahs. See Werner Kellog's The Bible as History for one summary.  The story of Unt-Napushtim (Noah and the Flood) dates to about 2300 BC or earlier based on pottery, other writings, and standard archeological methods.

Now, if one story comes earlier, that is the source and the later is the copy, unless you would like to deny the arrow of time and cause and effect.

The cosmology -- shape of the universe -- of the OT is Babylonian.  Again, you can compare that to writings of Babylon dating before the Exodus. 

And why not?  Babylonian science was the best of its day.  So the P authors set their theological message of Genesis 1 in the best science of the day.  So did the Psalmists and others. 

The question is: do the theological messages depend on the cosmology?  IOW, are the theological messages just as valid set in the shape of the universe as discovered by science over the last 2500 years?  Most Christians say "YES" and move on.

LewisWildermuth · #10 30th March 2003, 01:50 PM

Today at 07:05 AM Lanakila said this in Post #1

This is controversial, and I was just trying to come up with another angle that I haven't seen discussed here. This is taken from a sermon by my hubby that he preached in Kuwait and sent to me.

Take, for instance, the Philistine’s worship of Dagon. This entity had the body of a fish and the head and hands of a human.

Dagon was originally worshipped as a deity by the ancient Canaanites but was later obtained by the Philistines. Samson eventually destroyed the Temple of Dagon in Gaza (Judges 16:30).

In a related context, an ancient Babylonian myth relates that a supernatural fish deity emerged from the Erythraean Sea who was thought to be a demigod of ancient Babylonian Culture.

Dagon, is thus an early representation of pantheism that perceived life to emerge from the watery abyssal of the primordial oceans.

CAN I SAY PRIMORDIAL SOUP.

Well, I guess you could but Genesis says it so much better...

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. "
(Genesis 1:20 KJV)

Now that would be primodial soup...

But since Evolution has nothing to do with the primodial soup anyway and Abiogenesis favors life forming deep in the crust or ocean floors and not the earlier primordial soup in shallow puddles, I guess you'd be wrong on just about every count.