| Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too. |  | | 
26th March 2003, 06:31 PM
|  | Just an old legend... 27  | | Join Date: 23rd June 2002 Location: In perpetual bliss, so long as I'm with Jess.
Posts: 1,095
Blessings: 91,450
Reps: 617 (power: 0) | | | The funny thing is that I remember Darwin himself refuting IC in his Origin of Species... I think he called it something different, though.
__________________ Lung transplant: $500K. Rejection drugs: $25k/year. Being denied a life-saving operation because "it would be too risky": Priceless. Read about my bizarre fight with the healthcare bureaucrats at Save-Allan.org! | 
26th March 2003, 06:31 PM
|  | Member
 | | Join Date: 6th March 2003 Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 69
Blessings: 91,346
Reps: 10 (power: 0) | | | gentu - Bacterial Flagellum
MartinM - if Behe is the freshest you've read on the subject, you are behind the times. Please read my aforementioned file (that I recommended to Pete) on this thread
Arikay - I guess it comes down to the reading (again, like you on both sides of the table) leaving no other choice. Dembski has provided sound arguments against the possibility of evolution with a lot of his writings, to the note of which Miller, Pigliucci and others have done little to counter. | 
26th March 2003, 06:34 PM
| | Regular Member
 | | Join Date: 24th February 2003
Posts: 107
Blessings: 91,038
Reps: 10 (power: 0) | | | Why is a bacterial flagellum irreducibly complex? | 
26th March 2003, 06:36 PM
|  | HI 28  | | Join Date: 23rd January 2003
Posts: 12,645
Blessings: 92,137
Reps: 5,365 (power: 27) | | NebraskaMan: Ok, are you talking about evolution, or Abiogenesis here?
different things.
__________________
Wei wu wei
Green faeries | 
26th March 2003, 06:41 PM
|  | Member
 | | Join Date: 6th March 2003 Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 69
Blessings: 91,346
Reps: 10 (power: 0) | | | Yes, I understand they are different things. Abiogenesis. Good catch. But once you infer intelligent design, the argument becomes theological..."Who is the designer." | 
26th March 2003, 06:43 PM
|  | PeteAce - In memory of WinAce 33  | | Join Date: 30th June 2002
Posts: 8,425
Blessings: 2,093,381
Reps: 9,311,669,886,675,212 (power: 9,311,669,886,693) | | Today at 05:08 PM NebraskaMan said this in Post #15
Pete, the information at the link I just gave should answer your question of If not, let me know and I will gladly work to accomodate your knowledge appetite!
I went through it (well, skipping parts that seemed irrelevant), but didn't get an answer to my question.
Dembski brings up the flagellum, but doesn't actually assert how we we know it exhibits "specified complexity", other than to assert that since biologists haven't figured out exactly how it evolved, therefore it must be too complex to have evolved. | 
26th March 2003, 06:44 PM
|  | Member
 | | Join Date: 6th March 2003 Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 69
Blessings: 91,346
Reps: 10 (power: 0) | | | Gentu, scratch my comment...I was typing before reading and clicking before thinking. I have to leave now, but I will post an answer after I get home later tonight.
Have a good evening gents! | 
26th March 2003, 06:45 PM
|  | HI 28  | | Join Date: 23rd January 2003
Posts: 12,645
Blessings: 92,137
Reps: 5,365 (power: 27) | | Yes.
But the thing is, that if ID is about how life started, or how the universe started, then it doesnt do a thing to harm evolution, as evolution really doesnt care how things got here. Today at 02:41 PM NebraskaMan said this in Post #25
Yes, I understand they are different things. Abiogenesis. Good catch. But once you infer intelligent design, the argument becomes theological..."Who is the designer."
__________________
Wei wu wei
Green faeries | 
27th March 2003, 11:55 AM
|  | Member
 | | Join Date: 6th March 2003 Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 69
Blessings: 91,346
Reps: 10 (power: 0) | | evolution really doesnt care how things got here
So, evolution is science of the gaps? "We can't explain things here, here, here and here which are necessary to our evolutionary theory, but that doesn't damage our theory!" What?
Anyway, as for the bacterial flagellum, how can evolution theory explain its emergence? It can't! Even the simplest bacterial flagellum requires around forty proteins for its assembly and structure. All of these proteins are necessary in the sense that lacking any of them, a working flagellum does not result.
-- dembski
This isn't God of the gaps, this is the fact, that if evolution theory (including natural selection) cannot account for the emergence of each and every organism, it fails! Darwin himself said If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.
Please note the word any in his quote, and then explain how you allow the theory to still stand. | 
27th March 2003, 12:20 PM
|  | Followerof Quincy 26 
| | Join Date: 25th January 2003 Location: The land of the free, Sweden
Posts: 617
Blessings: 91,429
Reps: 66 (power: 0) | | [b] Today at 03:55 PM NebraskaMan said this in Post #29
So, evolution is science of the gaps? "We can't explain things here, here, here and here which are necessary to our evolutionary theory, but that doesn't damage our theory!" What?
Becuase it isn't about evolution or biology, it's about physics and chemistry... |  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |