This thread is for non-Christians to come and give us your questions, concerns with Christianity or religion as a whole that is seeking some opinions of us liberals, post-modern, emergent, moderate, people who don't fit any label believers.
__________________ “I've eaten things that didn't complain this much.”-Denis Leary
"Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense."-Edward Blake-The Comedian in The Watchmen
Last edited by Sophia7; 19th July 2007 at 10:45 PM.
Reason: Updating due to CF rule changes
I deconverted a few months ago, around September officially, I think. In any case, I want to believe, but there are several things that stand in my way. I've asked questions in the sections for that kind of thing, but the answers I got were cookie cutter and unsatisfactory. I was treated like I had never heard of Christianity. Here are the things I have trouble with, and I'd like to know how I can deal with them.
------------
Hell.
First and foremost, I don't believe in hell. I don't understand how a loving God can just toss so many souls away. I have heard the free will arguement, the "well they'll only burn for awhile and then be destroyed" arguement, and the "they'll only be wiped out" arguement. None of them make sense to me. Are there any other explainations of this doctrine? How do you all believe?
If Christianity is supposed to make people better, why doesn't it?
Why are so many of the orthodox, fundamentalist Christians so hateful towards nonChristians, homosexuals, and really even liberals? It would seem that if a true religion is being followed, the closer it is followed, the better. That is not the case with Christianity.
What's up with other religions?
Is there any validity to other religions? Why do you not believe them? So many seem to preach a much more loving and giving doctrine than Christianity. Most of them do not have doctrines about homosexuality or hell.
NonChristians?
How do you feel about nonChristians? Do you think they're misled? I've heard most times that satan is working against them, and that's why they deconverted, or don't believe. As a nonChristian myself, I find this personally insulting. A lot of nonChristians have had experiences with the divine that made them believe the way they do. I've been told that this was just demons tricking them.
God's system of justice.
This is something that's seemed twisted to me as soon as I started really thinking about it. In the OT, the god is jealous, and mean, and wipes entire cities out. There are specific examples I can give, but it'll take some time if those are necessary. The story of Job is a fantastic one.
People naturally good or naturally bad?
Simple enough. As far as I can tell, people are neither. People are animals, just like any other animal. They do what they need to to survive.
If God created everything, why did he set the system up this way?
So basically, God creates man with free will, and they eat from the tree of knowledge because they want to know everything. Human nature, obviously. Odd that again, Adam and Eve are punished for wanting to think, because that seems to be a trend in the Bible. You're not supposed to question anything, but blindly follow. (Addressed in the next point.)
In any case, sin is introduced. So God sends his son to die. But if he's omnipotent, it didn't have to be that way. Isn't it just like...almost like a play enacted for us to make us love God? "Look at what I am doing for you. Sending my son to die for you...LOVE ME." Not only does it keep people thinking they need God, but it also assures him of our devotion. He set the system up so that was necessary. I feel like I'm being manipulated.
Thought Crimes and the Righteous Atheist.
You are sent to hell for not believing. A thought crime, when a pedophile or a serial killer who destroyed many lives can accept Christ at the last minute, and he's in with the Lord. But an atheist who genuinely can't believe is thrown into the lake of fire/wiped off the face of the planet, like so much trash. How can God love something that's clearly just trash to Him, that he can simply throw away? I guarantee one answer to this would be that he does sorrow over those souls. So why doesn't he change the rules? Is killing (essentially) your children justified by the fact you feel oh so bad about it?
Understanding God?
Also, if I am created in God's image, why does this not make sense to me? Everyone says we don't understand why God does what he does...well that's all well and good, but we're sposed to be created in God's image, so theoretically our system of justice should be the same, if nothing else. Why isn't it?
Truly seeing God.
If someone has truly seen God, and understood the decision they're making, how could they reject Him? It seems to me that most people don't believe not out of spite, but out of an inability to do so.
--------------
That's all I have for now. I hope I didn't come across as mean, because I didn't mean to. Really sick of cookie cutter answers though. Thank you for any insight you all can provide
I don't really have any aswers for you, mostly because to see so many question all in one place is getting me blurry when I try to sort it out in a way that you might gain understanding.
I deconverted a few months ago, around September officially, I think. In any case, I want to believe, but there are several things that stand in my way. I've asked questions in the sections for that kind of thing, but the answers I got were cookie cutter and unsatisfactory. I was treated like I had never heard of Christianity. Here are the things I have trouble with, and I'd like to know how I can deal with them.
------------
Hell.
First and foremost, I don't believe in hell. I don't understand how a loving God can just toss so many souls away. I have heard the free will arguement, the "well they'll only burn for awhile and then be destroyed" arguement, and the "they'll only be wiped out" arguement. None of them make sense to me. Are there any other explainations of this doctrine? How do you all believe?...
I don't believe in hell either
If Christianity is supposed to make people better, why doesn't it?
Why are so many of the orthodox, fundamentalist Christians so hateful towards nonChristians, homosexuals, and really even liberals? It would seem that if a true religion is being followed, the closer it is followed, the better. That is not the case with Christianity.
I often wonder this myself and is why I think religion is man made. I don't believe God cares what religion we practice...it's more about how we treat each other
What's up with other religions?
Is there any validity to other religions? Why do you not believe them? So many seem to preach a much more loving and giving doctrine than Christianity. Most of them do not have doctrines about homosexuality or hell.
I think there is validity in other religions. I believe that culture, society, upbringing, and many other factors influence which if any religion we choose.
NonChristians?
How do you feel about nonChristians? Do you think they're misled? I've heard most times that satan is working against them, and that's why they deconverted, or don't believe. As a nonChristian myself, I find this personally insulting. A lot of nonChristians have had experiences with the divine that made them believe the way they do. I've been told that this was just demons tricking them.
I don't think nonChristians are misled, I don't think they are possessed by Satan...it's just a matter of choice and what works best for you. If some want to believe in a God that would punish someone who has been tricked then that's their choice...I personally don't believe that way.
God's system of justice.
This is something that's seemed twisted to me as soon as I started really thinking about it. In the OT, the god is jealous, and mean, and wipes entire cities out. There are specific examples I can give, but it'll take some time if those are necessary. The story of Job is a fantastic one.
That's why I believe the bible is written by men. I can't read it literaly or else all I see are contradictions....I choose to read it prayerfully because I think there can be spiritual truth in it.....
People naturally good or naturally bad?
Simple enough. As far as I can tell, people are neither. People are animals, just like any other animal. They do what they need to to survive.
I try to see the good in everyone because that's the way I want God to see me. I never have been able to subscribe to the "original sin" idea...
If God created everything, why did he set the system up this way?
So basically, God creates man with free will, and they eat from the tree of knowledge because they want to know everything. Human nature, obviously. Odd that again, Adam and Eve are punished for wanting to think, because that seems to be a trend in the Bible. You're not supposed to question anything, but blindly follow. (Addressed in the next point.)
In any case, sin is introduced. So God sends his son to die. But if he's omnipotent, it didn't have to be that way. Isn't it just like...almost like a play enacted for us to make us love God? "Look at what I am doing for you. Sending my son to die for you...LOVE ME." Not only does it keep people thinking they need God, but it also assures him of our devotion. He set the system up so that was necessary. I feel like I'm being manipulated.
Exactly! Man set up the system...not God.
Thought Crimes and the Righteous Atheist.
You are sent to hell for not believing. A thought crime, when a pedophile or a serial killer who destroyed many lives can accept Christ at the last minute, and he's in with the Lord. But an atheist who genuinely can't believe is thrown into the lake of fire/wiped off the face of the planet, like so much trash. How can God love something that's clearly just trash to Him, that he can simply throw away? I guarantee one answer to this would be that he does sorrow over those souls. So why doesn't he change the rules? Is killing (essentially) your children justified by the fact you feel oh so bad about it?
NA since I don't believe God is like that
Understanding God?
Also, if I am created in God's image, why does this not make sense to me? Everyone says we don't understand why God does what he does...well that's all well and good, but we're sposed to be created in God's image, so theoretically our system of justice should be the same, if nothing else. Why isn't it?
I don't understand the God that Christianity has created either. As far as I'm concerned it's simply this....love one another.
Truly seeing God.
If someone has truly seen God, and understood the decision they're making, how could they reject Him? It seems to me that most people don't believe not out of spite, but out of an inability to do so.
I agree. I've never seen God, but I try to believe He's there because I have no other explanation for the love I've experienced. Someone else who hasn't had the life I've had might not see it that way and I can't say that I blame them. It's hard to believe in God when you are starving, abused, and discriminated against.
--------------
That's all I have for now. I hope I didn't come across as mean, because I didn't mean to. Really sick of cookie cutter answers though. Thank you for any insight you all can provide
Lately I've finally been able to pour out my true feelings...thank you for the opportunity! I'm not saying I'm right....it's just what I believe.
</IMG></IMG></IMG></IMG>
I deconverted a few months ago, around September officially, I think. In any case, I want to believe, but there are several things that stand in my way. I've asked questions in the sections for that kind of thing, but the answers I got were cookie cutter and unsatisfactory. I was treated like I had never heard of Christianity. Here are the things I have trouble with, and I'd like to know how I can deal with them.
hey there. thanks for a really detailed post. good post might i add.
------------
Hell.
First and foremost, I don't believe in hell. I don't understand how a loving God can just toss so many souls away. I have heard the free will arguement, the "well they'll only burn for awhile and then be destroyed" arguement, and the "they'll only be wiped out" arguement. None of them make sense to me. Are there any other explainations of this doctrine? How do you all believe?
for myself it's rather a confusing topic with hell. we see Sheol, the abode of the dead where even the righteous went, or Sheol used as a metaphor; David saying, "God you are there in Sheol", while he's alive? then we go to Gehenna, an actual place that you can visit today, and it's either a metaphorical understanding of a mythological hell that seems to resemble nothing but Hades in Greek mythology, not to mention that you can go to "hell"/Gehenna today...it's in the Middle East.
the conclusion for me is, i could use the situation in Dafur as a metaphorical understanding of hell if i wanted to. i think it's undeniable that we can see hell all around us, and heaven. eternal judgement all around us, eternal salvation...especially if the afterlife is supposed to be meshed here in the here and now. and with a God who's will is that all will come to a saving knowledge, i just don't feel like giving myself the egotistical head of thinking i can change God's ultimate plan because of my sinful ways. i'm not omnipotent, but God is. so my faith/hope is that God will reconcile all of us through Jesus.
now i very well could be wrong. so i believe in being humble as best as we can, and if i die and go to hell, then i'm going to have trust that God made a holy desicion. but i figure, some afterlife hell, in whatever poetic expression it is used in, is nothing as vile as breaking the greatest commandments of Christ and nothing as vile ruining the only life we live on this earth but breaking those commandments. i'd rather believe that God is a god who gets His Will done instead of giving us Americain democratic rights to damn ourselves because if that isn't the case, i don't know if that god would be worth following. i hope so much that God is not a hopless romantic but an eternal, infinite, all-powerful God.
here's something from St. Issac of Syria that really got me thinking:
"... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!"
If Christianity is supposed to make people better, why doesn't it?
Why are so many of the orthodox, fundamentalist Christians so hateful towards nonChristians, homosexuals, and really even liberals? It would seem that if a true religion is being followed, the closer it is followed, the better. That is not the case with Christianity.
the problem here in my opinion is not a case of religious issues, but a problem of humanity not being able to accept any differences. we see groups that we do not understand, become fearful, add in some scriptures to justify what we feel and then bam the seperation comes, which it's odd how one sinner will seperate themselves from another sinner.
i think the argument could be used in another way as well. for example, if a non-Christian, atheist or whatever's views is correct, then why are so many people hateful against Christians? just something to think about.
What's up with other religions?
Is there any validity to other religions? Why do you not believe them? So many seem to preach a much more loving and giving doctrine than Christianity. Most of them do not have doctrines about homosexuality or hell.
i don't believe in other religions because i have chosen to believe in Christianity. that doesn't mean i don't see any validity to them. in all actuality i do, but i don't have to follow something to see validity in it.
a friend of mine, who was a Christian, told me once that all religions are lights, but it's Jesus who is the LIGHT.
the reasons why i believe in Christianity solely? i have no "conquering" reason. i have believed since i was 12 years old. 13 years of believeing is hard for me to let go even though i have become rather liberal in my views. it's just what i choose to believe.
NonChristians?
How do you feel about nonChristians? Do you think they're misled? I've heard most times that satan is working against them, and that's why they deconverted, or don't believe. As a nonChristian myself, I find this personally insulting. A lot of nonChristians have had experiences with the divine that made them believe the way they do. I've been told that this was just demons tricking them.
well first off, i'm not dualistic enough to give some fallen angel deity like powers. secondly, a non-Christian is the same as me. the difference is i believe in Jesus, they don't. if there is a real difference, that's in God's eyes/mind but that is out of my care and concern because any kind of understanding i could grasp on is understanding while sin is still something i must deal with. so i figure, it's best to focus on the commandments instead of trying to formulate some definition of seperation that is only based in sin because i'm still a sinner.
God's system of justice.
This is something that's seemed twisted to me as soon as I started really thinking about it. In the OT, the god is jealous, and mean, and wipes entire cities out. There are specific examples I can give, but it'll take some time if those are necessary. The story of Job is a fantastic one.
there are some many horrific stories in the OT. my views are Jesus is the Logos, the Word, not the cannonical scriptures. so imagine an ancient person writing scriptures in light of their social beliefs. if the scriptures were written today, do you think it'd say the same thing? i don't believe so. i think it's best to look at the scriptures as God working with that people in the time and their stories, their wisdom is still applicable today, but i find it hard to question God because of Moses's words of going into battle and telling the people of God to kill off the men and take the virgins.
People naturally good or naturally bad?
Simple enough. As far as I can tell, people are neither. People are animals, just like any other animal. They do what they need to to survive.
i agree. human beings i believe were created by God and nothing can take away the perfect and good creation that God created us. but i don't think we can deny that humanity has some natural problems (including myself.) so is good or bad? i have no way of answering, so i'll answer both. we are naturally good and bad.
If God created everything, why did he set the system up this way?
So basically, God creates man with free will, and they eat from the tree of knowledge because they want to know everything. Human nature, obviously. Odd that again, Adam and Eve are punished for wanting to think, because that seems to be a trend in the Bible. You're not supposed to question anything, but blindly follow. (Addressed in the next point.)
In any case, sin is introduced. So God sends his son to die. But if he's omnipotent, it didn't have to be that way. Isn't it just like...almost like a play enacted for us to make us love God? "Look at what I am doing for you. Sending my son to die for you...LOVE ME." Not only does it keep people thinking they need God, but it also assures him of our devotion. He set the system up so that was necessary. I feel like I'm being manipulated.
great stuff.
my views are Jesus had to be sent. forget about the cross and the resurrection. human beings need an image, something of flesh to understand things, at least it seems to be. Chrisitans follow Jesus, Jews follow the prophets in the OT, Muslims follow Mohammad, Buddhists follow Buddha, and Hindu follow the ancient scriptures written by holy Indians(i'm really ignorant with Hinduism so i hope that was a fair statement). so with Christ, God sent His only Son as we believe and His life was shown as the way to God. it's something i at least as a human being can say, ok i can follow this way the best i can and i have faith that God is at the other end. that i'm living in the reality of God why? because i can read some text about a man who lived in this earth.
then with the story in Genesis, do you think one can take literally in all fairness? walking and talking snakes? look at chatpers 1 and 2 and you can see two different creation stories. i look at that story as explaining how we as human beings work. it's the very crux of my own life. i have a Garden to tend to, and i fail just as Adam and Eve do. i do things i shouldn't do, just as they did. ignorant beings like myself, don't know better to do things that we shouldn't do. just as Adam and Eve were ignorant yet perfect and good. so i figure the story teaches us amazing lessons of how humanity works. it's metaphorical, mythological and to use something like that in a literal sense of questioning God, i'm not meaning to "preach" at you here but it's kind of an impossibility because the crux of the story is one, telling two different creation stories and it's mythological. a beautiful story that helps me out in my day to day life and to give me some understanding why i can be an idiot in my own life, but nothing that i take as a literal statement of two nake people walking around taking care of a garden and animals and the naked woman runs into a seductive walking snake and that apple they take a bite out of condemns all humanity. and remember, i can search for it in the OT but in the OT it mentions that one cannot be condemned for another person's actions.
Thought Crimes and the Righteous Atheist.
You are sent to hell for not believing. A thought crime, when a pedophile or a serial killer who destroyed many lives can accept Christ at the last minute, and he's in with the Lord. But an atheist who genuinely can't believe is thrown into the lake of fire/wiped off the face of the planet, like so much trash. How can God love something that's clearly just trash to Him, that he can simply throw away? I guarantee one answer to this would be that he does sorrow over those souls. So why doesn't he change the rules? Is killing (essentially) your children justified by the fact you feel oh so bad about it?
this is another reason why i believe God will get His Will accomplished. God is not some pathetic hopless romantic like some romantic person who loves His loved ones so much but He just can't be with them, so a tear sheds down His face while their flesh burns in Hell when the power is right there in His hands to grab them out.
not meaning to be judgemental but i find any view like that to be pure blasphemey. i may not have some set "image" of who God is or what outside of Christ, but this image is pure blasphemey and idolatry to me, and your point is a sad fact of how God is seen by many, many people. and kudos for pointing it out.
a God with power over all His creation, including the afterlife, i have faith and hope that God will reconcile all creation because that's His will and God is perfect and holy and God is infinite. i suppose it all depends on how the religious experience or the reality that you see God in to lead you to see how God MIGHT act.
i'm not trying to be judgemental here, it is not my place to judge, and the terms i used is not something i normally do but i suppose i'm being bluntly honest. hope you don't mind.
Understanding God?
Also, if I am created in God's image, why does this not make sense to me? Everyone says we don't understand why God does what he does...well that's all well and good, but we're sposed to be created in God's image, so theoretically our system of justice should be the same, if nothing else. Why isn't it?
the only way i can answer this is with a question. can a mortal, finite being, truly understand an immortal, infinite being in everyway?
Truly seeing God.
If someone has truly seen God, and understood the decision they're making, how could they reject Him? It seems to me that most people don't believe not out of spite, but out of an inability to do so.
well how is that even possible anyways? in the Old Testament, even Moses never truly seen God...he saw the backside of God.
our experiences are the only way i think we can "see" God, but our experiences will never be a complete set of binoculars of looking at God because we only see where God is moving, we never see God Himself/Herself/Itself but outside our experiences and outside our own personal views.
i hope i stayed on topic.
--------------
That's all I have for now. I hope I didn't come across as mean, because I didn't mean to. Really sick of cookie cutter answers though. Thank you for any insight you all can provide
thank you for taking the time to write all that you did, and i hope i stayed on topic with everything you wrote and i hope i didn't offend you in any way.
God Bless you
__________________ “I've eaten things that didn't complain this much.”-Denis Leary
"Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense."-Edward Blake-The Comedian in The Watchmen
Nono...you answered my questions very well. I really wanted a new perspective on questions I'm sure you've seen before, and you gave it to me
The only one I'm not sure I understand is the one about Thought Crimes and the Righteous Atheist. I'm just not sure I follow your answer lol.
I guess all these questions are about the way I was raised more than anything. I feel in my heart that these things I'm asking are not real, but so many people have said similar things to me, I'm trying to reconcile what I feel and what I've heard, if that makes sense.
I believe God is loving, which is why I can't believe in hell. But I've heard countless times that this is not supported by the Bible, which lead me to my question about the righteous atheist. I posed this question to several authorities at my church (really my parents' church now), and they said He is sad over the souls, but basically that they asked for it. Anything I wrote in these questions has basis in doctrines that I've been taught since childhood Some are questions posed from GA, just consolidated.
Nono...you answered my questions very well. I really wanted a new perspective on questions I'm sure you've seen before, and you gave it to me
The only one I'm not sure I understand is the one about Thought Crimes and the Righteous Atheist. I'm just not sure I follow your answer lol.
maybe it's because your seeing a Christian say the same thing you are but with different terminology.
if you could just tell me the parts that your confused with my response and maybe i can better address my point if you disect my response.
I guess all these questions are about the way I was raised more than anything. I feel in my heart that these things I'm asking are not real, but so many people have said similar things to me, I'm trying to reconcile what I feel and what I've heard, if that makes sense.
i've done it, and many have. nothing wrong with it by any means. keep it up.
I believe God is loving, which is why I can't believe in hell. But I've heard countless times that this is not supported by the Bible, which lead me to my question about the righteous atheist. I posed this question to several authorities at my church (really my parents' church now), and they said He is sad over the souls, but basically that they asked for it. Anything I wrote in these questions has basis in doctrines that I've been taught since childhood Some are questions posed from GA, just consolidated.
and that is why i gave kind of a blatant response because i have heard the very same things before as well and i have a hard time thinking it as even possible. not just because of "love" for God's creation from God but because the image that it portrays as God just doesn't add up with the definitions that are commonly held about God.
plus i don't find it right to portray God as an emotional basketcase either.
one thing i think to think with hell and i believe a poster here at CF put it really well (shh don't say it was Dailyblessings) but there has to be a reason that hell is mentioned even if the original meaning is lost(that's a paraphrase of what he said.)
so with that, i think if we look around the world today in the here and now, in my opinion we see eternal judgement. i look at God's judgement and blessing, kind of like cause and effect. you break the commandments in regards to loving your neighbor as you would love yourself, which shows at least a breaking to love God with all your heart, mind and soul, there's going to be dire consequences for that infraction. i'm not talking about eternal brimestone and people screaming at the gnashing of teeth on their bodies in some afterlife place, but i'm talking about the reaction that gives. the guilt that just never ends for sinning against hell. the life that sinful infraction against love creates. people can get really screwed up when people sin against them by sinning against love.
if there's any reason to believe in "hell" it is because of these simple infractions we see constantly around us in this life (ie, remember i'm not talking about a post-mortem world here.) every sin can be dissected as an infraction against the two commandments that Christ gave us. to committ that, causes severe infractions. whether it is God sitting up in heaven and going "zap" to those infractioneers i don't know. i don't define the Father as a being who is a grey haired old man sitting up in heaven with a magic wand going, "blessings" "damnation". God set up the world in my opinion in basic laws...cause and effect or in other words causality. these basic laws will give blessing/heaven to those who obey and follow (whether it be Christian or not) and those that disobey and committ infractions against those basic laws (whether it be Christian or not) will receive the immediate effect of that. it's the only way i can understand that i can live in hell with my failures and sinful actions even though i am a Christian.
and look at the timeframe that the scriptures were written in. those times could be described as a time that shows definitions of hell in it. wars all the time, Gehenna was a dispicable place in history back then. no wonder people believed in "hell" and explained it in the metaphorical/mythological/poetic expressions that came out. Dante's version of hell can be seen heavily influenced because of the things he went through in his time and day. Milton's versioin of hell can be seen heavily influenced because of the things he went through in his time and day.
so whether or not if there is a hell in the post-mortem world is beyond me, but i do know that hell is real in this world and i pray for deliverance from it for all. another poster here at CF said something really thought provacting for me at least too (shh don't say it was e-Rev ). we can choose what we do but we can't choose the consequences (again a paraphrase. detailed memory isn't my finest of practices.)
i gues that's why i as a Christian still believe in hell, but i believe it strictly in this life. as far as the post-mortem world, i'm undescided on it, but it's pretty irrelevant for me because as i mentioned earlier, i hope and pray for the reconciliation of all in the next life, so the fear of hell, or the problems of hell (defined in the post-mortem world) elude me to say the least.
__________________ “I've eaten things that didn't complain this much.”-Denis Leary
"Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense."-Edward Blake-The Comedian in The Watchmen
Last edited by Im_A; 6th January 2007 at 06:42 PM.
Reason: to clarrify a point. my apologies. :)
I guess all these questions are about the way I was raised more than anything. I feel in my heart that these things I'm asking are not real, but so many people have said similar things to me, I'm trying to reconcile what I feel and what I've heard, if that makes sense.
That part in bold really resonates with me. I am currently doing something similar as topics come up. I am being pleasantly surprised with God and more disappointed in christians as the journey moves forward.
It has been interesting for me to see the views of others on these topics consolidated.
The story of Job is a fantastic one.
Well I would start threads but...I can't. I wouldn't object to separate threads for each one if someone's up for it 
lol.
I am currently doing something similar as topics come up. I am being pleasantly surprised with God and more disappointed in christians as the journey moves forward.
Linear Mode
