Do Christians care about whether or not what they are believing is accurate and true? If so why do so many fight science which aims to find the truth irrespective of religious belief? Are Christians afraid of having their belief systems exposed as false?
Do Christians care about whether or not what they are believing is accurate and true?
Seems that they believe strongly that what they think is accurate and true, or as accurate and true as they can be
Originally Posted by timmeh
If so why do so many fight science which aims to find the truth irrespective of religious belief? Are Christians afraid of having their belief systems exposed as false?
Ah, now here's the interesting question.
Coming from a position probably closer to yours than the type of Christian who disbelieves, this is what I've deduced:
Some think that scientists cannot know the absolute truth (which is probably true), and that scientists keep changing what is true scientifically. As for whether they're afraid of their belief systems being invalidated, perhaps subconsciously, perhaps consciously for some.
Also, you can post anywhere in WWMC; this sticky thread is a remnant from when non-Christians were verboten from posting in "Christian Only" areas, with the exception of certain threads.
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Do Christians care about whether or not what they are believing is accurate and true? If so why do so many fight science which aims to find the truth irrespective of religious belief? Are Christians afraid of having their belief systems exposed as false?
Hi timmeh! I can hardly follow Loki's fine response to you. But I would like to speak for scientists and Christians alike in a way that amplifies what Loki says.
I think both compliment one another...but the perception is out there that Christians fight science, as you say, and vice versa.
I don't think some Christians are as afraid to have their belief systems challenged as some scientists' paradigms or theories. Neither do I believe that Christians have any realm of certainty that the most self-objecting scientist has as her/his template for being.
These are the questions that we should explore here with dialog and fellowship! This is actually our beer and fellowship thread and I'm glad you came here and asked! Please contribute to WWMC and we want to hear from you!
__________________ "The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
hey there. thanks for a really detailed post. good post might i add.
for myself it's rather a confusing topic with hell. we see Sheol, the abode of the dead where even the righteous went, or Sheol used as a metaphor; David saying, "God you are there in Sheol", while he's alive? then we go to Gehenna, an actual place that you can visit today, and it's either a metaphorical understanding of a mythological hell that seems to resemble nothing but Hades in Greek mythology, not to mention that you can go to "hell"/Gehenna today...it's in the Middle East.
the conclusion for me is, i could use the situation in Dafur as a metaphorical understanding of hell if i wanted to. i think it's undeniable that we can see hell all around us, and heaven. eternal judgement all around us, eternal salvation...especially if the afterlife is supposed to be meshed here in the here and now. and with a God who's will is that all will come to a saving knowledge, i just don't feel like giving myself the egotistical head of thinking i can change God's ultimate plan because of my sinful ways. i'm not omnipotent, but God is. so my faith/hope is that God will reconcile all of us through Jesus.
now i very well could be wrong. so i believe in being humble as best as we can, and if i die and go to hell, then i'm going to have trust that God made a holy desicion. but i figure, some afterlife hell, in whatever poetic expression it is used in, is nothing as vile as breaking the greatest commandments of Christ and nothing as vile ruining the only life we live on this earth but breaking those commandments. i'd rather believe that God is a god who gets His Will done instead of giving us Americain democratic rights to damn ourselves because if that isn't the case, i don't know if that god would be worth following. i hope so much that God is not a hopless romantic but an eternal, infinite, all-powerful God.
here's something from St. Issac of Syria that really got me thinking:
the problem here in my opinion is not a case of religious issues, but a problem of humanity not being able to accept any differences. we see groups that we do not understand, become fearful, add in some scriptures to justify what we feel and then bam the seperation comes, which it's odd how one sinner will seperate themselves from another sinner.
i think the argument could be used in another way as well. for example, if a non-Christian, atheist or whatever's views is correct, then why are so many people hateful against Christians? just something to think about.
i don't believe in other religions because i have chosen to believe in Christianity. that doesn't mean i don't see any validity to them. in all actuality i do, but i don't have to follow something to see validity in it.
a friend of mine, who was a Christian, told me once that all religions are lights, but it's Jesus who is the LIGHT.
the reasons why i believe in Christianity solely? i have no "conquering" reason. i have believed since i was 12 years old. 13 years of believeing is hard for me to let go even though i have become rather liberal in my views. it's just what i choose to believe.
well first off, i'm not dualistic enough to give some fallen angel deity like powers. secondly, a non-Christian is the same as me. the difference is i believe in Jesus, they don't. if there is a real difference, that's in God's eyes/mind but that is out of my care and concern because any kind of understanding i could grasp on is understanding while sin is still something i must deal with. so i figure, it's best to focus on the commandments instead of trying to formulate some definition of seperation that is only based in sin because i'm still a sinner.
there are some many horrific stories in the OT. my views are Jesus is the Logos, the Word, not the cannonical scriptures. so imagine an ancient person writing scriptures in light of their social beliefs. if the scriptures were written today, do you think it'd say the same thing? i don't believe so. i think it's best to look at the scriptures as God working with that people in the time and their stories, their wisdom is still applicable today, but i find it hard to question God because of Moses's words of going into battle and telling the people of God to kill off the men and take the virgins.
i agree. human beings i believe were created by God and nothing can take away the perfect and good creation that God created us. but i don't think we can deny that humanity has some natural problems (including myself.) so is good or bad? i have no way of answering, so i'll answer both. we are naturally good and bad.
great stuff.
my views are Jesus had to be sent. forget about the cross and the resurrection. human beings need an image, something of flesh to understand things, at least it seems to be. Chrisitans follow Jesus, Jews follow the prophets in the OT, Muslims follow Mohammad, Buddhists follow Buddha, and Hindu follow the ancient scriptures written by holy Indians(i'm really ignorant with Hinduism so i hope that was a fair statement). so with Christ, God sent His only Son as we believe and His life was shown as the way to God. it's something i at least as a human being can say, ok i can follow this way the best i can and i have faith that God is at the other end. that i'm living in the reality of God why? because i can read some text about a man who lived in this earth.
then with the story in Genesis, do you think one can take literally in all fairness? walking and talking snakes? look at chatpers 1 and 2 and you can see two different creation stories. i look at that story as explaining how we as human beings work. it's the very crux of my own life. i have a Garden to tend to, and i fail just as Adam and Eve do. i do things i shouldn't do, just as they did. ignorant beings like myself, don't know better to do things that we shouldn't do. just as Adam and Eve were ignorant yet perfect and good. so i figure the story teaches us amazing lessons of how humanity works. it's metaphorical, mythological and to use something like that in a literal sense of questioning God, i'm not meaning to "preach" at you here but it's kind of an impossibility because the crux of the story is one, telling two different creation stories and it's mythological. a beautiful story that helps me out in my day to day life and to give me some understanding why i can be an idiot in my own life, but nothing that i take as a literal statement of two nake people walking around taking care of a garden and animals and the naked woman runs into a seductive walking snake and that apple they take a bite out of condemns all humanity. and remember, i can search for it in the OT but in the OT it mentions that one cannot be condemned for another person's actions.
this is another reason why i believe God will get His Will accomplished. God is not some pathetic hopless romantic like some romantic person who loves His loved ones so much but He just can't be with them, so a tear sheds down His face while their flesh burns in Hell when the power is right there in His hands to grab them out.
not meaning to be judgemental but i find any view like that to be pure blasphemey. i may not have some set "image" of who God is or what outside of Christ, but this image is pure blasphemey and idolatry to me, and your point is a sad fact of how God is seen by many, many people. and kudos for pointing it out.
a God with power over all His creation, including the afterlife, i have faith and hope that God will reconcile all creation because that's His will and God is perfect and holy and God is infinite. i suppose it all depends on how the religious experience or the reality that you see God in to lead you to see how God MIGHT act.
i'm not trying to be judgemental here, it is not my place to judge, and the terms i used is not something i normally do but i suppose i'm being bluntly honest. hope you don't mind.
the only way i can answer this is with a question. can a mortal, finite being, truly understand an immortal, infinite being in everyway?
well how is that even possible anyways? in the Old Testament, even Moses never truly seen God...he saw the backside of God.
our experiences are the only way i think we can "see" God, but our experiences will never be a complete set of binoculars of looking at God because we only see where God is moving, we never see God Himself/Herself/Itself but outside our experiences and outside our own personal views.
i hope i stayed on topic.
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thank you for taking the time to write all that you did, and i hope i stayed on topic with everything you wrote and i hope i didn't offend you in any way.
God Bless you
Great Stuff! What this discussion really points to is the confusion of religion and you wonder how anyone can really know the whole truth. They don't! We are all searching for meaning.
There are so many questions. We live in a hostile environment that is a daily threat to our lives. As we try to gain better control and security over the threats we start to ask bigger questions..such as does our life really matter? Do we live in a moral universe that keeps us from harms way? Does justice really matter to God in the same manner we strive for justice in our own societies? Is there a better life beyond the grave? Is there truely a God that cares? It is unfortunate that there is no concrete evidence to prove to what degree God cares or not we live or die.
If God is in control of the Universe, if God is all powerful and all knowing, it is clear God intended for humanity to suffer greatly on earth.
God is not clearly understood, because our experience often contridicts our religious upbringing in most cases. Compare the Old and New Testaments and ask yourself the question...is this the same God? We see scores of people wiped out in a storm and wonder if life really matters to God to the degree it matters to us. (Infants die in these storms also). That is a fair question that Christianity has no reasonable and mature answer for...Why we suffer and why humanity has suffered so long without a clear cut answer from God.
When we dare to question the brainwashing of our meaningful parents and the church ... matters arent' so clear.
What matters for those who have love and faith in God is whether they have an authentic relationship with God. As long as your faith adds meaning to your life, bares good fruit and love for others, it doesn't matter if your relationship with God is objectively real or imaginary.
Threedog
Last edited by threedog; 21st May 2008 at 11:02 AM.
Do Christians care about whether or not what they are believing is accurate and true?
I can speak only for myself, but yes, I care a great deal.
If so why do so many fight science which aims to find the truth irrespective of religious belief?
Why some do is something I can't answer. But I can answer for myself: I have no issue with science, and I find no conflict between it and Christianity.
Are Christians afraid of having their belief systems exposed as false?
Again, I can speak only for myself. I follow truth wherever it leads. I follow Christ because I'm convinced his story as told in the Gospels is the truth.
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. No guilt of life, no fear of death This is the power of Christ in me
From life’s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
‘Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand
I have no issue with science, and I find no conflict between it and Christianity.
Surely there is a massive conflict. One follows reason and logic, the other opposes reason and logic.
Originally Posted by Izdaari
Again, I can speak only for myself. I follow truth wherever it leads. I follow Christ because I'm convinced his story as told in the Gospels is the truth.
Why do you believe that this story is the truth? There are many historical inaccuracies, they were written by unknown authors who lived long after Jesus' death (if he ever existed, which is another issue altogether!) and it's been modified by the church to force a point of view. If I presented you with a book and told you the same history of it, you'd not believe a single statement.
What evidence did you find in there to make you believe it to be true?
I guess from your name that you're a South Park fan. So am I.
But you seem to have wandered into the wrong place. (Which is an easy thing to do, especially for those new to CF; it's a huge and confusing place.) This is a thread for non-Christian friends of WWMC to come with their questions, concerns and comments. So far, so good. But you seem to come as a committed atheist, looking to pick a fight, rather than genuinely being in search of answers. General Apologetics is the proper place for that.
I'll give you quick answers, but I'm not going to be drawn into that kind of debate. Not that I can't handle it: I used to post on a board full of extremely intelligent and well-educated atheists, as one of very few theists there, and I always held my own. But I've done it and done it until I'm sick of it, and it's not enjoyable for me anymore, nor have I ever found it to be productive.
Originally Posted by timmeh
Surely there is a massive conflict. One follows reason and logic, the other opposes reason and logic.
Pardon me, but that statement is um, not logical. Christianity is very reasonable and logical, once you grant its premises. It's the premises you can't bring yourself to accept. Which is not to say that all Christians are logical... but that's also true of the general population.
Why do you believe that this story is the truth? There are many historical inaccuracies, they were written by unknown authors who lived long after Jesus' death (if he ever existed, which is another issue altogether!) and it's been modified by the church to force a point of view. If I presented you with a book and told you the same history of it, you'd not believe a single statement.
What evidence did you find in there to make you believe it to be true?
A lot of what you just stated is popular myth or old scholarship that's been refuted. In fact, current archaeology and history support the Bible as an accurate historical document very well. Some of the authors are unknown, but most of the New Testament authors are well established, and their books were written within the first generation after Jesus' death, when many eye witnesses were still alive.
So far as I'm aware, the only thing science or history disproves is Young Earth Creationism derived from a literal reading of Genesis 1, but this is the liberal Christian forum, and I don't think any of us here believed in YEC anyway. I never have, not since I was a kid anyway.
To me, the evidence for not only the historicity, but also the resurrection of Jesus is overwhelming, so much so that no other theory to explain those events is plausible.
It's also highly implausible that any mere human could have fulfilled the numerous Old Testament prophecies that Jesus did.
Alrighty, I'm done. As I said, I'm not interested in this kind of debate. But if you are really in search of answers, I can give you suggestions for further reading.
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. No guilt of life, no fear of death This is the power of Christ in me
From life’s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
‘Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand
I guess from your name that you're a South Park fan. So am I.
But you seem to have wandered into the wrong place. (Which is an easy thing to do, especially for those new to CF; it's a huge and confusing place.) This is a thread for non-Christian friends of WWMC to come with their questions, concerns and comments. So far, so good. But you seem to come as a committed atheist, looking to pick a fight, rather than genuinely being in search of answers. ... is the proper place for that.
Not looking for a fight, just thought it was a good place to start asking my questions...you're right, it is a big and confusing place!
Originally Posted by Izdaari
Pardon me, but that statement is um, not logical. Christianity is very reasonable and logical, once you grant its premises. It's the premises you can't bring yourself to accept. Which is not to say that all Christians are logical... but that's also true of the general population.
Since you're not willing to discuss it, I will answer very simply and briefly. Your response is a twisting of the terms reason and logic.
Originally Posted by Izdaari
A lot of what you just stated is popular myth or old scholarship that's been refuted.
Such as? I didn't really state much that can be refuted, it was a broad comment which is still certainly the modern scientific viewpoint. Feel free to prove otherwise.
Originally Posted by Izdaari
In fact, current archaeology and history support the Bible as an accurate historical document very well.
If you were actually willing to show me some of this data from reputable sources which show the bible as a historical document, I'd be very interested in seeing it.
Originally Posted by Izdaari
Some of the authors are unknown, but most of the New Testament authors are well established, and their books were written within the first generation after Jesus' death, when many eye witnesses were still alive.
It's a shame you don't wish to discuss this, because it seems we are reading completely different material, I'd love to read what you have been reading (assuming it IS scientific and not theologic in nature.
Originally Posted by Izdaari
So far as I'm aware, the only thing science or history disproves is Young Earth Creationism derived from a literal reading of Genesis 1, but this is the liberal Christian forum, and I don't think any of us here believed in YEC anyway. I never have, not since I was a kid anyway.
To me, the evidence for not only the historicity, but also the resurrection of Jesus is overwhelming, so much so that no other theory to explain those events is plausible.
It's also highly implausible that any mere human could have fulfilled the numerous Old Testament prophecies that Jesus did.
Alrighty, I'm done. As I said, I'm not interested in this kind of debate. But if you are really in search of answers, I can give you suggestions for further reading.
I'm sorry, I would like to discuss this with you, but I'll take it to the other forum you suggested. There are many many more points there which I take issue with and truly think you have been misinformed, but respecting your wishes....I'm offski!
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