I deconverted a few months ago, around September officially, I think. In any case, I want to believe, but there are several things that stand in my way. I've asked questions in the sections for that kind of thing, but the answers I got were cookie cutter and unsatisfactory. I was treated like I had never heard of Christianity. Here are the things I have trouble with, and I'd like to know how I can deal with them. [...]
You should believe that hell will exist (or does exist, depending on your perspective) because Jesus is our Teacher and although there are some problems in the Gospels and Epistles, Jesus was pretty clear that those who reject God and embrace sin will be condemned to the lake of fire. Now, understanding what hell is and why this is so comes secondly; this involves the mystery of life and why God created the world. The entire "problem of evil" can be understood in the light of this wisdom. Basically, God created the world because he loves and needs us to love and love him; however, the world had to be less than God, and so there is suffering, and we are not born alive, but dead - that is, without God's grace. If we follow the clues and seek the truth, then we find and return God's love through forgiveness, us for others and he for us, in that order. However, many embrace that which keeps them separate from God, which is what we call sin. They are separate from God because of their impurity. Thusly, they never participate in God's eternity, but in the eternity of the world itself, in a matter of speaking, which is that of suffering.
If all of God's law and the true prophets depend on loving God and loving others as yourself, as Jesus taught, then there are many Christians who do not realize they are followers of Christ - righteous Jews, Muslims, etc. They have a relationship with God and participate in his eternity. Jesus has a lot of mercy and he will be the judge of us all in the end, not us of each other. I don't know what will happen to those good adults who die atheists and agnostics, but I like to think there will be a place for them in the Kingdom. By the way, the idea of a "good adult" isn't that of just being good to his friends and family while generally wasting his life in empty, selfish, petty and carnal pursuits.
Not everything in the Bible is true, but the true things are extremely important. Understanding the true parts takes a lot of study, discussion and contemplation. A better Bible would have most of the Old Testament merely summarized, and with a big disclaimer. I think you should understand that the World wants Christians to be divided and that they continue to follow Mosaic Law. When Christians become fundamentalists of the Gospel, then the true love and charity of Christianity is demonstrated.
All of the major world religions condemn homosexuality in their most traditional sects. Jesus never condemned homosexuality though. He even said it's best if you never have sex or a family - indeed, having a spouse and children can be very dangerous spiritually. People can marry so they don't act like [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] and cause social strife. I don't see why homosexual couples shouldn't be allowed to marry too.
I think everyone has the ability to forgive and repent, and to receive the Holy Spirit accordingly. Everyone also has some sense of morality, and some embrace cruelty and hatred, unfortunately. They decide to do this. But there's hope for them too. That's why it's very important that a Christian engages the world and allows his or her light to shine in the darkness.
May God bless you and lead you in your search for understanding. Seek and you shall find; knock and the door shall be opened to you.
Last edited by ScottUnitarian; 22nd August 2007 at 10:41 AM.
Hey guys.
I made a couple of posts in the non-Christians area and I thought I would repeat myself here so that I could hear opinions of more liberal people.
Being brought up very religiously conservative, I had an all or nothing attitude and when I decided I couldn't accept everything, I stopped believing all of it, in my early 20's.
I'd like to be a Christian, a liberal one, but the supernatural stuff is hard for me to believe. I don't think it's dumb or anything, I just have trouble with taking it literally. But some of those things are required to be believed literally. Like the virgin birth for example, or miracles.
My husband is a Christian and I'd like for us to be the same religion. The consensus on the other board seems to be that going to church, practicing Christianity, will not help me until I have faith. I just don't... I have tried to pray and meditate and I just am not feeling it. I don't feel a presence or hear a voice or anything. So how do you start believing in something you don't believe in?
Maybe you can tell me how it happened for you or what books you read that influenced your thinking. Thanks,
But some of those things are required to be believed literally. Like the virgin birth for example, or miracles.
I suppose that if you wanted to be a nicene creeded christian you would have to believe those things. But I'd like to put the question of faith differently: what's your philosophy of life? What is important in life to you and why? What are your values? What do you strive for? What do you long for? What motivates you? I think the spiritual path starts there... but I'm not sure about it, I'll have to think on it some more.
Well, I see what you are saying. My principles are that you should try to be compassionate, understanding, seek knowledge, strive not to hurt others physically or emotionally. And the Golden Rule. One thing is, many religions teach this. Almost every society has a saying that basically paraphrases the Golden Rule.
So I guess I am wondering, if that is the case then why choose to be Christian over any other religion unless you believe that the miraculous stuff is exclusive to Christianity? Or do you think all religions are equal? It seems like to belong to a religion you would have to think it was the best one, superior to the others somehow. And most people think other religions have false gods or that Christianity has the only true prophecies, and then that is why they believe it over other religions.
Well, I see what you are saying. My principles are that you should try to be compassionate, understanding, seek knowledge, strive not to hurt others physically or emotionally. And the Golden Rule. One thing is, many religions teach this. Almost every society has a saying that basically paraphrases the Golden Rule.
So I guess I am wondering, if that is the case then why choose to be Christian over any other religion unless you believe that the miraculous stuff is exclusive to Christianity? Or do you think all religions are equal? It seems like to belong to a religion you would have to think it was the best one, superior to the others somehow. And most people think other religions have false gods or that Christianity has the only true prophecies, and then that is why they believe it over other religions.
i don't know why people have to believe their religion is superior to other religions. religions seem like nothing but mythological tales to me to explain our existence. yet, we have to believe that one side is superior than the other and i don't understand that either. especially when are knowledge is limited so how one can figure out that they have found ultimate truth is beyond me.
i personally wouldn't consider superiority to other faiths. other faiths that i see no use for in my life are meaningless to me, but on that note, i don't see them as bad, or that they are of no use for other human beings, or as evil. there are just a few religions that i have curiousiosity in while trying to maintain my own faith and others are not meant for me.
but for myself reason why Christianity is still the crux of my own spirituality is because of Jesus's teachings. sure they resemble other religions. the two greatest commandments were there before christ came to this earth. but something doesn't have to be original to be good of use. i think it would be better revelation if all human beings, all religions can share similiar truths to guide our lives everyday. as far as the supernatural and the afterlife for my own life, it is meaningless right now. because there seems to be many issues with hell. the context it was used in at the time, and the whole idea itself of judging one's existence in a world they are not even part of seems really selfish and arrogant to me...to the point i find it useless and nothing of worth for my life. i have enough to work on this life lived than to worry about the afterlife/post-mortem world, or trying to figure out about all the mythological miracles that quo say important to the tenants of our faith.
so if i could advise anything, don't worry about superiority. don't worry about what makes it so special as compared to other religions. if your interested in Christianity, just research, and start living it as best as you can while a non-believer. and just focus more on your own relationship with the Divine. if you come to belief, you'll have your reasons why you follow this way over another as we all do...but that isn't what should be important to one's faith imho.
Originally Posted by terragena
Hey guys.
I made a couple of posts in the non-Christians area and I thought I would repeat myself here so that I could hear opinions of more liberal people.
Being brought up very religiously conservative, I had an all or nothing attitude and when I decided I couldn't accept everything, I stopped believing all of it, in my early 20's.
I'd like to be a Christian, a liberal one, but the supernatural stuff is hard for me to believe. I don't think it's dumb or anything, I just have trouble with taking it literally. But some of those things are required to be believed literally. Like the virgin birth for example, or miracles.
My husband is a Christian and I'd like for us to be the same religion. The consensus on the other board seems to be that going to church, practicing Christianity, will not help me until I have faith. I just don't... I have tried to pray and meditate and I just am not feeling it. I don't feel a presence or hear a voice or anything. So how do you start believing in something you don't believe in?
Maybe you can tell me how it happened for you or what books you read that influenced your thinking. Thanks,
you don't start believeing in something you don't believe in. i'm sure as your realizing, it is an impossibility. my opinion of what starts belief tho is the emotional need for fulfillment. whether it be to clean one's "sinful slate", one's needs that are not/have not been meant at that point in their lives, or it could be the supernatural leading them, but too many times we hear the same old conversion story that is just difference with semantics or we hear about children growing up and staying in the faith.
my best advice is, if you want a liberal perspective of Christianity, check out John Shelby Spong, Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, Hans Kung. i'm a personal fan of Paul Tillich. another good starting point would be to check out the more post-modern movement in Christianity which isn't liberal but it isn't conservative either. authors like Brian McLaren, Rob Bell even.
as far as conversion, my advice is don't convince yourself to believe in something you don't believe in. but since it is important to you to be of one religion with your spouse, you can get started with this in your life/faith, and i don't know if he goes to church or if you go to church with him but if you don't, then start going and just start getting active. that way, when/if you come to a point that you start believeing, it will be grounded on good soil...not you just convincing yourself to believe in whatever religion you choose to.
God Bless you!
__________________ “I've eaten things that didn't complain this much.”-Denis Leary
"Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense."-Edward Blake-The Comedian in The Watchmen
why choose to be Christian over any other religion
It's a question of being called or compelled. There is more to Jesus than just good teaching.
It's the lamb that allows it's self to be slautered for the benefit of the humans that slauter it (unlike the pig that squeels and puts up a big fight).
It's the good that overcomes the evil where it least expected it to.
It's the prince who gave up his right to a palace to be born in the slum.
It's the criples the blind and the outcast invited in.
It's grace when least expected.
It's the shepherd that goes after the lost sheep, or the lost coin,
It's the doctor for the sick.
It's all of these images and much more.
It leaves some people indiferent. It sometimes even leaves me indiferent. But if you want this, then you follow Jesus.
As for other religions, I don't know about them as much as I know people in them, and when I meet people who have got faith, and it's something shining in their eyes, something alive and honest, then I rejoice, because whatever the dogma or the title, they have found something of the truth and about love and what's important in life.
Personnally, I see myself as the sick person who needs the doctor, I'm sick with lack of love and there is only one that I know of who went to extremes in that subject, and therefore can be an authority on it.
I rarely ever think about the miracles. I don't know that you need to believe them litterally in the bible to have "faith". But whan you have faith, that's when you start to see miracles happening.
You should believe that hell will exist (or does exist, depending on your perspective) because Jesus is our Teacher and although there are some problems in the Gospels and Epistles, Jesus was pretty clear that those who reject God and embrace sin will be condemned to the lake of fire. Now, understanding what hell is and why this is so comes secondly; this involves the mystery of life and why God created the world. The entire "problem of evil" can be understood in the light of this wisdom. Basically, God created the world because he loves and needs us to love and love him; however, the world had to be less than God, and so there is suffering, and we are not born alive, but dead - that is, without God's grace. If we follow the clues and seek the truth, then we find and return God's love through forgiveness, us for others and he for us, in that order. However, many embrace that which keeps them separate from God, which is what we call sin. They are separate from God because of their impurity. Thusly, they never participate in God's eternity, but in the eternity of the world itself, in a matter of speaking, which is that of suffering.
If all of God's law and the true prophets depend on loving God and loving others as yourself, as Jesus taught, then there are many Christians who do not realize they are followers of Christ - righteous Jews, Muslims, etc. They have a relationship with God and participate in his eternity. Jesus has a lot of mercy and he will be the judge of us all in the end, not us of each other. I don't know what will happen to those good adults who die atheists and agnostics, but I like to think there will be a place for them in the Kingdom. By the way, the idea of a "good adult" isn't that of just being good to his friends and family while generally wasting his life in empty, selfish, petty and carnal pursuits.
Not everything in the Bible is true, but the true things are extremely important. Understanding the true parts takes a lot of study, discussion and contemplation. A better Bible would have most of the Old Testament merely summarized, and with a big disclaimer. I think you should understand that the World wants Christians to be divided and that they continue to follow Mosaic Law. When Christians become fundamentalists of the Gospel, then the true love and charity of Christianity is demonstrated.
All of the major world religions condemn homosexuality in their most traditional sects. Jesus never condemned homosexuality though. He even said it's best if you never have sex or a family - indeed, having a spouse and children can be very dangerous spiritually. People can marry so they don't act like [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] and cause social strife. I don't see why homosexual couples shouldn't be allowed to marry too.
I think everyone has the ability to forgive and repent, and to receive the Holy Spirit accordingly. Everyone also has some sense of morality, and some embrace cruelty and hatred, unfortunately. They decide to do this. But there's hope for them too. That's why it's very important that a Christian engages the world and allows his or her light to shine in the darkness.
May God bless you and lead you in your search for understanding. Seek and you shall find; knock and the door shall be opened to you.
so you said that not everything in the Bible is true...but you surely believe that hell is true...i find that interesting. i'd be entertained to see your justification to why some things in the Bible are true, but others aren't, and specifically your stating that hell is true amongst those things, which i find highly entertaining.
reason why i'm asking is because, again here is something that seems nothing but picking and choosing what is real, what isn't.
__________________ “I've eaten things that didn't complain this much.”-Denis Leary
"Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense."-Edward Blake-The Comedian in The Watchmen
Hey guys.
I made a couple of posts in the non-Christians area and I thought I would repeat myself here so that I could hear opinions of more liberal people.
Being brought up very religiously conservative, I had an all or nothing attitude and when I decided I couldn't accept everything, I stopped believing all of it, in my early 20's.
I'd like to be a Christian, a liberal one, but the supernatural stuff is hard for me to believe. I don't think it's dumb or anything, I just have trouble with taking it literally. But some of those things are required to be believed literally. Like the virgin birth for example, or miracles.
My husband is a Christian and I'd like for us to be the same religion. The consensus on the other board seems to be that going to church, practicing Christianity, will not help me until I have faith. I just don't... I have tried to pray and meditate and I just am not feeling it. I don't feel a presence or hear a voice or anything. So how do you start believing in something you don't believe in?
Maybe you can tell me how it happened for you or what books you read that influenced your thinking. Thanks,
Look at it this way. I consider myself a Christian---a Catholic, at that---but I don't believe in God, the virgin birth, or . . . anything supernatural. And I abhor and find nonsensical the idea that Jesus was crucified as a sacrifice, as I do the idea of hell. I believe in the love of one's neighbor, in nonviolence, in the dignity of the human spirit. As I see it, that's all that mattered to Jesus's teachings. After all, "have faith" is easy for those who have faith to say---it's not really a matter of choice, as I see it.
Linear Mode
