Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom

Hi-

I was wondering if there is a date or approximate date put on the composition of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I realize that the Divine Liturgy of St. JC developed out of the previous liturgies, but in its present form is it exactly what St. John Chrysostom handed on? Were there any modifications of the liturgical books throughout the years?

What is the term for the week-to-week prayers of the liturgy (propers in the Roman Mass)? Do we know the origins of these?

Thanks for your help.

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Have you checked out this website yet? http://www.chrysostom.org/

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Well, in catechesis I learned that the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom was more or less in its present form by the 12th century. I don't really have any evidence to back that up though, it's just what I was told. There were still some changes after that though of course, but it definitely would have been recognizable to us. A notable change would be the Nikonian reforms in the 16th century.

The movable prayers are called the troparia and kontakia.

Thanks for the website. I believe myself to be a Chrysostom devotee of sorts, I've read quite a number of his sermons.

Now, St. John lived in the fourth century, but if what I'm told is correct the liturgy in its present form is substantially that of the 12th century. Who made the changes? How significant are they? What is the Nikonian Reform?

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Could we define: Troparia, Kontakia, and also Ektenia? Apologies for my ignorance...

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The Kontakia were written by St. Romanos the Melodist, whose feastday was last Saturday. Kontakia are essentially hymns, but I'm sure someone else can better define these terms.

Originally Posted by Servus Iesu

Could we define: Troparia, Kontakia, and also Ektenia? Apologies for my ignorance...

See these links: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Kontakion
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Troparia


About the Ekentia, I might be wrong but I think this is the "pre prayer" like thing said by the Priest or Deacon... such as "again and again let us pray to the Lord..."

About the changes in the DL. I also might not have this fully accurate, but I believe that the changes included adding in things like the Toparia, Kontakia and then later reducing the length of these things that were added.

It is my understanding that substantially the DL has not been altered, but has rather had a these things added, then reduced and perhaps some other reductions. For example, some jurisdictions use the Beatitudes in their DL and some do not.

How it was explained to me was that St. Basil's DL is longer than St. Crysostom's and it is earlier than St. Chrysostom's. But when we do St. Basil's DL, it seems exactly the same to me. I asked my Priest why it takes longer but seemed the same and he indicated that there are some small reductions in St. Crysostom's from St. Basil but not a change in the essential aspects of the service.

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Servus... thanks for your questions... I would love to learn more about this. All the stuff you heard is what I have heard too.

John

Originally Posted by Xenia Rose

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About the changes in the DL. I also might not have this fully accurate, but I believe that the changes included adding in things like the Toparia, Kontakia and then later reducing the length of these things that were added.

It is my understanding that substantially the DL has not been altered, but has rather had a these things added, then reduced and perhaps some other reductions. For example, some jurisdictions use the Beatitudes in their DL and some do not.

This is my understanding as well. I found a Eucharistic prayer by Hippolytus (c.215) that is remarkably similar to our own. The liturgy has been shaped and moulded. They did not throw it out and re-invent the wheel.

Thanks John et al. Liturgics is a fascinating topic to me. I would be interested in reading a book about the developement of Eastern liturgy, in the vein of Fr. Fortescue's Roman Mass study. Surely there must be some scholarly studies on this topic, though lamentably I probably don't have the time to read any of them right now with my current load of classwork.

My understanding is that the developement of the Eastern liturgy is in at least one way opposite to the process of change in the Roman Mass. We began with a very simple Mass which flowered and grew throughout the centuries in an organic developement, while the Divine Liturgy underwent a -shall we say- organic simplification. Isn't the DL of St. John a simplification of the DL of St. Basil, which is in turn a simplification of the DL of St. James?

This is an interesting turn of events in my opinion, as it seems to disprove some of the fundamental assumptions of naturalist and Protestant religious historians. The near universal presupposition is that the 'early Church' began very simply and non-ritualistically and through pagan influences and the accretions of time became more florid and complex in its liturgics. However, if what I understand about the DL is true, the early Church was so excessive in ritual that it became cumbersome for the growing Church to maintain the ancient liturgies in their oldest forms.

If we believe that the Apostles received the liturgy in some form from Christ the Lord, this makes perfect sense in my mind. The Apostles had the scriptures opened to them and understood the interplay of biblical prophecy and its fulfillment so well that it would not be surprising if their liturgies sought to express these mysteries in their fullness. Perhaps it is only my impression, but does it not seem as though when they met to 'break bread' that they were coming together for quite some time and not for just one hour on Sunday morning? Can anyone think of any Scriptural evidence as to the nature of early liturgy, beyond the obvious?

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