Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Congregation > Faith Groups > Spirit-Filled / Charismatic
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

Spirit-Filled / Charismatic The forum for all charismatic churches and movements.

Closed Thread
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Unread 3rd October 2006, 12:37 AM
Senior Veteran

Gender: Male Married Faith: Non-Denominational Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 30th May 2004
Posts: 3,614
Blessings: 168,255
Reps: 8,682 (power: 22)
GodismyRefuge has disabled reputation
Idea

Originally Posted by Father Rick View Post
3 different issues...

First the 2 easy ones...

"Soul ties" are "modern psychology meets charismatic theology," and it not mentioned in scripture at all. It's basically trying to spiritualize bad relationships/bad relationship skills, so that one can just "pray a prayer" and "fix everything" rather than actually having to learn how to establish healthy boundaries in one's life.

A "Jezebel Spirit", while never mentioned in scripture per se, is used by many to describe a rebellious/controlling "spirit" within a person-- be that an attitude or an actual demonic spirit. It is (obviously) taken from Jezebel in scripture who dominated her weak husband, fought against the true prophets of God, and led the people into idol worship.

"Generational curses" are the more difficult of the three to discuss, since there are scriptures talking about the "sins of the fathers visited on the children to the 3rd and 4th generation." Scripture is also clear that the grace/mercy of God is visited to the 1000th generation, so it would definitely seem that God's grace is far greater in its impact (even on future generations) than any sin could ever be. Again, many try to spiritualize these things to make it so that one can "fix" everything by praying a "magical" prayer to "break the curse". In reality, it's about breaking patterns of sinful behavior. For example, most alcoholics are the children of alcoholics-- because they learned the behavior by living in a dysfunctional household. One has to allow the grace of God to bring change so that one doesn't continue in those destructive behaviors learned.
Thank you for the clear instruction in Truth on these matters. Many are confused concerning these issues. I hope they were listening to you, Father Rick! Be blessed
__________________


Last edited by IKTCA; 23rd October 2006 at 10:19 PM. Reason: updating quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #32  
Unread 3rd October 2006, 09:44 AM
churchlady's Avatar
De Oppresso Liber

Gender: Female Faith: Word-of-Faith Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 25th April 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,508
Blessings: 362,812
My Mood Mellow
Reps: 7,633,815 (power: 7,647)
churchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond repute
churchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Father Rick View Post
"Soul ties" are "modern psychology meets charismatic theology," and it not mentioned in scripture at all.
Father Rick, I have to respectively disagree with you on this one.

First of all, you call it 'charismatic theology at it's worst'
noting that the term 'soul ties' is not mentioned in scripture at all,....... then you DEFEND the 'Jezebel Spriit' by saying....."while never mentioned in scripture per se, is used by many to describe....."

Why can't 'soul ties', while never mentioned in scripture per se, be used by many to describe something that is observed in life situations.

Its basically trying to spiritualize bad relationships/bad relationship skills, so that one can just "pray a prayer" and "fix everything" rather than actually having to learn how to establish healthy boundaries in one's life.
You mean, just like some will accuse someone they don't like as having a 'Jezebel spirit'? Of course, terms to describe something can be abused by anyone!

But when you deal with some people in these very bad relationships, especially abusive ones, you actually NEED to 'spiritualize' the problem, because these people are in such darkness, that they can't see to free themselves from relationships, that everyone around them sees clearly are destructive.

Just teaching them relationship skills and boundaries are not enough for these who are in such darkness. That may be sufficient for people not caught in this darkness, but not for these unfortunate souls. They first have to have a stronghold (often demonic), broken off of their minds, and then they can learn relationship skills and boundaries.

Praise God that He heals from the inside out, not just the outside behavior.

"Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed."
__________________


Last edited by IKTCA; 23rd October 2006 at 10:19 PM. Reason: updating quote
  #33  
Unread 3rd October 2006, 07:08 PM
churchlady's Avatar
De Oppresso Liber

Gender: Female Faith: Word-of-Faith Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 25th April 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,508
Blessings: 362,812
My Mood Mellow
Reps: 7,633,815 (power: 7,647)
churchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond repute
churchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond reputechurchlady has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by janny108 View Post
I
How do you know if a person just has a tendency to control things and someone with a Jezebel spirit?
A person can be just the bossy, pushy, controlling type of personality and not be of a Jezebel spirit. They may be just immature and selfish.

However, the danger comes when a person who uses those traits to get their way, becomes given-over to it, to the point that they receive no correction and their conscience no longer convicts them. They are opening themselves to demonic enfluence. It can become set into their character structure until they no longer have the ability within themselves to be free of it. They have been captured by the enemy and are under the yoke of a stronghold.
__________________

  #34  
Unread 23rd October 2006, 07:01 PM
ahmunmun's Avatar
聖戰武士

30 Gender: Female Faith: Pentecostal Country: Hong Kong Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 6th September 2004
Location: My heart is in Hong Kong...
Posts: 2,427
Blessings: 203,995
Reps: 814,955,613,677,370 (power: 814,955,613,690)
ahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond repute
ahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond reputeahmunmun has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by churchlady View Post
Father Rick, I have to respectively disagree with you on this one.

First of all, you call it 'charismatic theology'
noting that the term 'soul ties' is not mentioned in scripture at all,....... then you DEFEND the 'Jezebel Spriit' by saying....."while never mentioned in scripture per se, is used by many to describe....."

Why can't 'soul ties', while never mentioned in scripture per se, be used by many to describe something that is observed in life situations.



You mean, just like some will accuse someone they don't like as having a 'Jezebel spirit'? Of course, terms to describe something can be abused by anyone!

But when you deal with some people in these very bad relationships, especially abusive ones, you actually NEED to 'spiritualize' the problem, because these people are in such darkness, that they can't see to free themselves from relationships, that everyone around them sees clearly are destructive.

Just teaching them relationship skills and boundaries are not enough for these who are in such darkness. That may be sufficient for people not caught in this darkness, but not for these unfortunate souls. They first have to have a stronghold (often demonic), broken off of their minds, and then they can learn relationship skills and boundaries.

Praise God that He heals from the inside out, not just the outside behavior.

"Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed."
Well said!
__________________

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by IKTCA; 23rd October 2006 at 10:21 PM. Reason: Quote was edited.
  #35  
Unread 23rd October 2006, 07:05 PM
Veteran

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 18th May 2006
Posts: 1,780
Blessings: 155,461
Reps: 2,675 (power: 12)
BearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of light
It's superstitious crap.
__________________

  #36  
Unread 23rd October 2006, 07:16 PM
lismore's Avatar
Legend

35 Gender: Male Faith: Christian Country: Scotland Member For 5 Years Watchman
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 28th October 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 17,606
Blessings: 30,114,600
My Mood Praising
Reps: 1,690,145,705,166,959,616 (power: 1,690,145,705,166,987)
lismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond repute
lismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond reputelismore has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by BearerBob View Post
It's superstitious crap.


Perhaps.

As I have often asked, what is the difference between the fruits of the sin nature and this Jezebel's Spirit?

I also ask about Generational curses what God meant by this:


Deuteronomy 24:16 NIV
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

Jeremiah 31:30 NIV
Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge.


Exodus 18:20

20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.


Usually when someone brings up generational curses and I mention these scriptures, they tell me I have Jezebel's Spirit. When I say I dont believe In reincarnation they tell me I have a soul tie.

__________________

__________________
[i]From the lone shieling of the misty island
Mountains divide us, and the waste of seas;
Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland,
And we, in dreams, behold the Hebrides.

Although they cannot repay you now, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14)


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
  #37  
Unread 23rd October 2006, 07:20 PM
Veteran

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 18th May 2006
Posts: 1,780
Blessings: 155,461
Reps: 2,675 (power: 12)
BearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of lightBearerBob is a glorious beacon of light
Originally Posted by lismore View Post

Usually when someone brings up generational curses and I mention these scriptures, they tell me I have Jezebel's Spirit. When I say I dont believe In reincarnation they tell me I have a soul tie.

Charismania(?) was supposed to be a correction for the ills of the previous doctrines. Instead it has become worse than Catholicism in alot of ways.
__________________

  #38  
Unread 23rd October 2006, 07:37 PM
Simon_Templar's Avatar
Not all who wander are lost

39 Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 29th June 2004
Posts: 7,609
Blessings: 4,201,666
Reps: 415,414,241,839,141,952 (power: 415,414,241,839,159)
Simon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond repute
Simon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond reputeSimon_Templar has a reputation beyond repute
While I would agree with Fr. Rick for the most part on 'Soul ties' I would point out that there could be some precedent for the idea in regard to marriage and divorce. The bible teaches that marriage creates a spiritual bond which can only be disolved by God.

This is why the church traditionally has granted annulments, and not just divorces.

Marriage and divorce are civil legal contracts and can be done by civil authority. The relationship of husband and wife is something created by, and sanctified by God and thus only God can disolve it.
This, presumably, would be why Jesus says that a divorced person who remarries commits adultery.

On the Jezebel spirit I would also add in the refrence from revelation in the letters to the seven churches. A woman had begun teaching and was leading the church astray. Jesus refers to her as "that woman Jezebel". Since it is likely that Jezebel was not actually the woman's name, it seems to many that Jesus is making refrence to the spirit in which she was opperating.

Generational curses, I would put in the same catagory as Soul Ties.. there is a slight basis for it in scripture in certain circumstances, however, most of what is being refrenced is not a spiritual curse, but the simple every day sort of curse that we refer to as cause and effect. IE if you raise your children wrong, they have effectively been cursed because it will cause destruction and ruin in their lives as adults.
__________________

  #39  
Unread 23rd October 2006, 09:17 PM
Atlantians's Avatar
Student of Theology and History.

25 Gender: Male Faith: Calvinist Party: US-Others Country: United States Member For 5 Years Steward
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 28th March 2006
Location: California
Posts: 5,203
Blessings: 580,693
My Mood Daring
Reps: 25,522,558,993,267,532 (power: 25,522,558,993,281)
Atlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond repute
Atlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond reputeAtlantians has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by lismore View Post
Hi

Recently I have been hearing about these things more and more at church during the sermon. Can anyone help me out with what these things are?

Jezebel's Spirit I have vaguely heard of once before. Its something that makes women try to rule over their husband (or something?). Sorry girls if I got that wrong

Generational Curses I dont think I believe in (Ezek 18).

What are Soul ties when they are at home?

Even if they are good things I prefer a sermon more and about Jesus+the gospel or the Holy SPirit than these side issues.

The Spirit of Jezebel is spiritual and positional userpation. Whoredome used to one's own benefit.

Woman have always saught authority over the husband since the fall, a part of the curse.
Men are put in a position of authority they were not supposed to have. Women were placed bellow their equal with a desire to have that equality restored, if not eliminated with the benefit going to herself.

Generational curses are commonly thought of as mystical wierd spiritual domination from some act of negative decisions long ago.
What they really are was demonstrated by one of my Elders in a sermon. He is a black history prophesor. He is also African in origin.
He talked about that as a kid, in the segregated community, the culture, being oppressed, caused the creation of a sense of selfish ambition. Gang activity.
This created a sense of lawlessness that meant that if a man in the community stole a TV, for instance, no one would care in that community if the TV was stolen from maybe a white family.
This led to children learning those behaviours and passing those behaviours to their children, and so on.
These "curses" last generations, until someone actively decides to fight that culture in their family and change it.

That is a generational curse.

As for this soul ties.
No clue.
Sounds hokey.
__________________

  #40  
Unread 23rd October 2006, 11:18 PM
TheGloryisHere's Avatar
Senior Veteran

58 Gender: Female Faith: Word-of-Faith Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 13th September 2006
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 4,091
Blessings: 176,076
Reps: 623,065 (power: 636)
TheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud of
TheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud ofTheGloryisHere has much to be proud of
Originally Posted by lismore View Post
Hi

Recently I have been hearing about these things more and more at church during the sermon. Can anyone help me out with what these things are?

Jezebel's Spirit I have vaguely heard of once before. Its something that makes women try to rule over their husband (or something?). Sorry girls if I got that wrong

Generational Curses I dont think I believe in (Ezek 18).

What are Soul ties when they are at home?

Even if they are good things I prefer a sermon more and about Jesus+the gospel or the Holy SPirit than these side issues.

a Jezebal spirit has no gender. Men have it as much as women. It just means its a controlling spirit. It's found in ppl who are into excessive control of others. You find that in both male and female. It has nothing to do with whether a person is married or not. It sometimes happens in marriage or it can be a leader who controlls those under him.
__________________

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Until the life of the Christian is so obviously different from the
life of the sinner, why should the sinner want what the Christian has?

CF Staff is doing a wonderful Job!
- Janny Grein
Closed Thread


Return to Spirit-Filled / Charismatic

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:24 PM.