Darwin & The York Groundsel

john, you don't even understand evolution, so I am almost offended that you keep calling it a lie

keep in mind that biologists the world over who understand it far better than you beleive it is the truth

I trust their judgement, and my own, that evolution is the best explanation


come back to the real world john

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'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.'
(Aldous Huxley)

Let me see if I got this right. If you have a biologist and a theologian, and they both have the same level of education. The biologist is to be trusted but not the theologian. Is that what you people are saying?

I think the point is that your authority to discuss evolution is limited by your lack of knowledge and education in the area. How can you discuss Darwin's work when you haven't taken the effort to read it?

If someone was to try to discuss the bible with you and had not read it, but continued to call it a lie, wouldn't you first tell them to actually read the bible?

As far as biologists and theologians, they each have their domain of knowledge. You are trying to use your knowledge in one domain to form your opinions (and assert knowledge) in the other. This doesn't work.

Personally, I would tend to trust the biologist over the theologian when it comes to the validity biological processes. I would also tend to trust the theologian over the biologist when it comes to determining the nature of a Christian diety. Like notto said, "they each have their own domain of knowledge", and their beliefs should be judged accordingly

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Tha Anglican Bishop of Oxford, who isn't a biologist (that I know of) has said _this:

"First, the theory of evolution, far from undermining faith, deepens it._ This was quickly seen by Frederick Temple, later Archbishop of Canterbury, who said that God doesn't just make the world, he does something even more wonderful, he makes the world make itself._ God has given creation a real independence and the miraculous fact is that working in relation to this independent life God has, as it were, woven creation from the bottom upwards: with matter giving rise to life and life giving rise to conscious reflective existence in the likes of you and me._ The fact that the universe probably began about 12 billion years ago with life beginning to evolve about 3 billion years ago simply underlines the extraordinary detailed, persistent, patience of the divine creator spirit.

The second reason I feel sad about this attempt to see the Book of Genesis as a rival to scientific truth is that stops people taking the bible seriously._ The bible is a collection of books made up of very different kinds of literature, poetry, history, ethics, law, myth, theology, wise sayings and so on._ Through this variety of different kinds of writing God's loving purpose can come through to us._ The bible brings us precious, essential truths about who we are and what we might become._ But biblical literalism hinders people from seeing and responding to these truths.

Then there is science._ Science is a God-given activity._ Scientists are using their God-given minds and God-given creativity to explore and utilise God-given nature._

Sadly, biblical literalism brings not only the bible but Christianity itself into disrepute."

http://www.oxford.anglican.org/docs/...22743334.shtml

This bishop, along with five other Anglican bishops and on eCatholic bishop and a number of eminent scientists, has written a letter to the British Prime Minister complaining about the teaching of creationism after it was found that a government-supported school in the north of England was promoting creationist teaching:

"Dear Prime Minister,
We write as a group of scientists and bishops to express our concern about the teaching of science in the Emmanuel City Technology College in Gateshead. Evolution is a scientific theory of great explanatory power, able to account for a wide range of phenomena in a number of disciplines. It can be refined, confirmed and even radically altered by attention to evidence. It is not, as spokesmen for the college maintain, a "faith position" in the same category as the biblical account of creation which has a different function and purpose.
The issue goes wider than what is currently being taught in one college. There is a growing anxiety about what will be taught and how it will be taught in the new generation of proposed faith schools. We believe that the curricula in such schools, as well as that of Emmanuel City Technical College, need to be strictly monitored in order that the respective disciplines of science and religious studies are properly respected.
Yours sincerely
Bishop of Oxford; Sir David Attenborough FRS; The Bishop of St Albans; Lord May of Oxford, President of the Royal Society; Professor John Enderby FRS, Physical Secretary, Royal Society; The Rt Revd John Oliver, Bishop of Hereford; The Rt Revd Mark Santer, Bishop of Birmingham; Sir Neil Chalmers, Director, Natural History Museum; The Bishop of Southwark; Sir Martin Rees FRS, Astronomer Royal; The Bishop of Portsmouth; Professor Patrick Bateson FRS, Biological Secretary, Royal Society; The Roman Catholic Bishop of Portsmouth; Sir Richard Southwood FRS, Past Biological Secretary, Royal Society; Sir Francis Graham-Smith FRS, Past Physical Secretary, Royal Society Professor Richard Dawkins FRS"

http://www.simonbarrow.net/article37

I assume all these bishops aren't atheists.

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"Sadly, biblical literalism brings not only the bible but Christianity itself into disrepute." - The Rt. Revd. Richard Harries, Anglican Bishop of Oxford.

Let me see if I understand you correctly...

A lawyer and a Doctor go to school for about the same amount of time so you would let a lawyer perform open heart surgery on you?

They both go to school longer than a mechanic so they should know even more about how a car works right?

Now doesn't this start to sound a little silly?

You got it, to let a Biologist tell you what the Bible says, is the same as asking a lawyer to perform open heart surgery on you.

I would not go to a student doctor or lawyer anyways. My friend who teaches in a medical collage would not go to a doctor that did not have at least 15 years of experance & he would perfer someone with 25 years of experance.

If I need a surgeon for a nip or a tuck, I would most likly make an appointment to go talk to the chief surgeon and try to talk him into doing it. He may let a student play around a little bit, but then he will be there to take over to see to it that it is done right.

As far as open heart surgery, no way would I go though that. I would just pray for God to heal me. If your heart beats with the heart of God, your not going to have any problems with it. If you have God's love in your heart, your heart will be healthy.

Those that have the life of Jesus in them, do not really need to go to doctors all that much. Maybe a little nip or tuck or cut off a little bit of something every now and then, but not all that much.

It amazes me at the church that we have people from the outside come in for healing and they bring a whole laundry list of ailments with them. But the people who attend the church may get a tummy ach or something ever now and then, but God usually heals them pretty quick, and a lot of them have learned how to walk in divine health so that they do not ever even get sick.

If the pastor would preach the dietary laws of Moses, I think they would be even healther than what we are already.  I find that the more I follow the Bible and live it out in my life, the better off I am for it. I do not think it is "legalism" to do what the Bible says to do and to be what the Bible says we are to be. Why bother to read it, study it and learn it, if your not going to do what God tells you to do in His written word to us.

Wait a sec... you want me to back up my claim? That sounds funny coming from you.

But anyway, here's what the Executive Director for the Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists has to say about evolution (specifically human evolution):

"Science indicates that we share most of our genetic structure with primates. What violence does that do to the Christian understanding of man? God is not an organism. He does not have a genetic structure. God is Spirit. The image of God in man does not refer to our physical form or body; it refers to our spirit. Our uniqueness is in our spiritual capacity to enter loving relationship with a God who loves us.

Theologically, it makes no difference whether God decided to form our physical bodies through long stages of biological development or by a special creative act." (emphasis added)

In other words, who cares if we descended from primitive apes? It apparently makes no difference to him from a theological perspective. You, however, have a problem with it.

Of course, he claims to be a born-again Christian. So why shouldn't I trust him?

You personally. It's too easy to say, "oh they're saying something I don't agree with, must be Satan at work". It's a cop-out that be claimed for anything you don't like. I can just as easily claim you are deceived by Satan (which, given some of the falsehoods you've claimed on these forums, I'm beginning to wonder...).

Heh, this reminds me of a story I saw on another forum:


There was once a man who had the utmost belief that God would answer all his prayers, all he need do was ask.

He learned from his neighbors a flood was coming and that if he didn't seek help he would surely drown. So his neighbors offered him a ride in their car to safety.

"No," replied the man. "I prayed to the Lord and he will save me".

The flood waters rose and he sought high ground on a hill. A rescue boat appraoched and told him to get in and that he would be taken to safety.

Again the faithful man replied "I prayed to the Lord and he will save me".

Hours go by and now the water had risen to his chest. A helicoptor flied to him and dropped a rope. The would-be rescuers told him to grab onto the rope and they would fly him to safety.

Once again the man replied "I prayed to the Lord and he will save me".

So, eventually the water rose over his head and the man drowned.

Upon entering heaven the man sees God and approaches him.
"Lord, I have been a good, faithful man all my life. All I asked was that you save me from the flood-waters. Why didn't you answer my prayers?" questioned the man.

"What are you talking about?" God replied. "I gave you three chances."

source

a biologist doesn't tell you what the bible says john, he'll tell you what the evidence indicates

evolution has nothing to do with the bible, its a scientific theory

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'Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.'
(Aldous Huxley)