The evil will be taken first, not the righteous

I posted this here from another thread because I think it deserves a thread of its own...

The disturbing thing to me is (considering many are being taught the opposite), if a rapture takes place, it will be the evil ones that are removed first as Jesus Himself described in Matthew...

In the first section I've pasted over I bolded the words that Jesus explains in the second section I pasted.  Notice that the tares are taken out BEFORE the wheat.

(Matthew 13:24) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed(the Son of Man, Jesus) in his field(the world - earth):

(Matthew 13:25) But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares(children of the wicked one) among the wheat(children of the Kingdom), and went his way.

(Matthew 13:26) But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares(children of the wicked one) also.

(Matthew 13:27) So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed(children of the Kingdom) in thy field(the world - earth)? from whence then hath it tares(children of the wicked one)?

(Matthew 13:28) He said unto them, An enemy(satan) hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

(Matthew 13:29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

(Matthew 13:30) Let both grow together until the harvest(end of the world): and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers(angels), Gather ye together FIRST the tares(children of the wicked one), and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat(children of the Kingdom) into my barn(wonder what the barn is? ). 

Below in bold are the translations that I put in parantheses above...

(Matthew 13:36) Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

(Matthew 13:37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

(Matthew 13:38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

(Matthew 13:39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

(Matthew 13:40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

(Matthew 13:41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

(Matthew 13:42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 13:43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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If doing the right things were easy, they wouldn't be as special.

I like the the book "Ultimate Things: An Orthodox Christian Perspective on the End Times by Dennis Eugene Engleman," I found it helped me to get a balance back when viewing the end times after reading the pre trib works.

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How do we know this doesn't refer to the final judgment?  Since the judgment of the dead doesn't occur (where they are thrown into the furnace) until after the 1000 years.

Additionally, it seems that even among post-tribbers this is only taken to mean that the harvest will occur simultaneously (rather than the wicked first).  If the wicked are removed completely, then of what purpose is a rapture which occurs immediately before the Day of the Lord?

Clearly, this must refer to final judgment and thus have no bearing on the rapture timing.

I'm anti-pre-trib also, but this just doesn't cut the mustard unfortunately.

Oh, so Jesus was just being sarcastic and saying that He was going to line up the wicked for judgment first?  I don't think so.  I believe this is referring to the occurence before the 1000 years.  As most people know, Judgment Day does not occur until after this reign of Christ. 

You say the wicked will not be gathered first, Jesus says they will.  Why is it I trust in Him more? 

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If doing the right things were easy, they wouldn't be as special.

What I'm saying is Jesus' words presents a problem for all of us.  Whether we're pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib or pre-wrath.

The parable makes it sound as if the wicked will be gathered first, yet 2 Thessalonians 2 clearly presents the "gathering" as before the Day of the Lord.  If our gathering occurs after the gathering of the wicked, (a) why are we being gathered and (b) why will there be a Day of the Lord (which is always understood as a day of wrath against the wicked) if the wicked have already been gathered and thrown into the furnace?

The way I see this is that the wicked are gathered, judged, tossed into the lake of fire and we are ushered into New Jeruselum.  So this gathering of the wicked must be the second resurrection making this a final judgment passage rather than a rapture passage.  Or else, we're taking this "first" thing too literally.  Perhaps that is simply how wheat and tares are separated and the analogy isn't perfect

See what I'm getting at?

Can you solve the "tares first" problem without making this a final judgment passage?

Sure, it's before the 1000 year reign.  Then "hell will give up their dead" and they'll be returned for Judgment Day.  I don't believe we'll be raptured out of the world at all, I believe in the "yo-yo" theory because that's the way the Bible describes it no matter how much it bothers people what God's plan is.

When Jesus comes, He said His reward will be "with Him."  I know I for one wouldn't want to leave and miss out on His great reward.  And their cannot be a secret rapture by any stretch, because Revelation says all the nations and tribes will mourn at seeing Him.  Sounds like the whole world will know He's here, no secret at all.

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If doing the right things were easy, they wouldn't be as special.

I agree with this; the wheat and the tares is a parable of the timing of the events in the final days. Many won't agree with this because it involves too much heartache; ex: why would I have to suffer through that? Doesn't God love me? The rapture theory on the other hand brings the comfort of escape, but this parable distinctly tells us clearly the order of events:

The wicked (tares) are removed first, and burned.
Gods chosen (wheat) are gathered into his barn.

We have the book of Revelation for guidance, yes. But we are also told that we can be 'hid" in the Lords day, we can 'escape' these things that are coming to the earth.
Is this a literal removal of our body from earth? The parable of the wheat and the tares tells us, no.

Where does the Bible describe the "yo yo theory"?  It wouldn't be a theory if it was described.  And again, if the wicked are taken first, then why is their a yoyo rapture before the day of the Lord (which is unmistakbly the destruction of the wicked as I will quickly show you if you don't agree)?

That doesn't work man.

Who said the rapture will be secret?  I don't believe it will be secret at all.

I'm not pre-trib.  I'm pre-wrath (which places the rapture at an unknown day and hour in the second half of the 7 year period (most likely toward the end of it).  It will occur just before God's wrath begins.  The raptured Saints will be in heaven.  I'm not sure where they'll go after that or when.

Jesus' reward certainly will be with him when he comes.  The wrath of God will also be with him and it will commense immediately after the "reward" is handed out (saints raptured).

 

Ok.

Read 2 Thessalonians 2

The day of the Lord and the rapture occur as part of the same event.

Read Mathew 24.

Jesus coming will be just after the sign in the sun, moon and stars which is just after the sixth seal.

So Jesus comes, then we all go up into the air.  Now what?  If we go back down immediately, where will we go?  The earth still has at least 5 months of wrath left (the locust plague alone is specifically timed at 5 months).  Even if we go to the earth somewhere to be protected, this doesn't make much sense and really doesn't change anything.

Even so, there is the great multitude in heaven that were martyrs (and perhaps all of the raptured saints) (Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 7:9-17).  And again, you have the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-9).  This is where I think many of the raptured saints go back to earth.  Perhaps only the martyrs though (who will be priests).  The rest of us will be kings and will apparently stay in heaven until the 1000 years are over (at which point will enter the new earth with the rest after the judgment of the "dead").

In your view, the righteous dead will all be alive and on the earth somewhere at the start of the thousand years and so they won't need to be resurrected.

I'm telling you, the wheat and tares parable has to refer to final judgment at the "end of this world".  When does this world end?  After the thousand years (right after the dead are judged).

I'm telling you, this yo yo rapture is just wrong.  It takes far too much imagination.  It reeks of scripture twisting to me.  Unless you can solve all of the problems, it will still be a problem.

That doesn't make sense.  It's like you're saying the wicked will be gathered up first (just like Jesus said) but then they'll be placed in front of the line to be judged first.  No, Jesus says they'll be thrown in the fire. 

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If doing the right things were easy, they wouldn't be as special.

You think people will be judged in a line?

Come on, God's better than that.