| Unorthodox Theology A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
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5th February 2003, 02:44 PM
|  | Radical Biblicalist
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| | Join Date: 30th January 2003 Location: Arizona
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Reps: 11 (power: 0) | | | Havoc, this actually is not a debate forum and thus should not be used as one.
What other proof do you want?? I can show statistical, archealogical, scientific, and historical proof for the Bible, but the truth is this that the Bible is the Word of God. And by the way, every one of the groups you mentioned not only is denied as being Christian by the Bible, but also by their own religious teachings and writings.
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5th February 2003, 05:18 PM
| | Celtic Witch
51 
| | Join Date: 26th July 2002 Location: Realityville
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Reps: 530 (power: 0) | | Originally posted by jseek21
Havoc, this actually is not a debate forum and thus should not be used as one.
What other proof do you want?? I can show statistical, archealogical, scientific, and historical proof for the Bible, but the truth is this that the Bible is the Word of God. And by the way, every one of the groups you mentioned not only is denied as being Christian by the Bible, but also by their own religious teachings and writings.
/me gently points to the "Open Discussion and Debate" heading.
That should take care of the issue of debating.
As far as proof goes I assume you havn't been following any of the discussions in this section? There is no substantive statistical, archeological, scientific, or historical proof that the Bible is the "Word of God". Christians have never been able to give anything except conjecture and speculation to that regard in the entire 1640 years of apologetics. If you have some new substantive evidence that has escaped all those scholars for all those years please feel free to present it here. I would caution you to look through the posts here so you don't just regurgitate the same old arguements that have been effectively refuted a hundred times here. In short may I note.
The Bible is not an eyewitness account. It was written well after the fact and the original manuscripts are lost. It is highly unlikely that the persons named on the gospels actually penned them.
We have no eyewitness accounts of Christs death and resurrection, only claims in the Bible that there were eyewitnesses. Since the veracity of the Bible is what is in question you cannot use Biblical claims as proof.
The complete lack of independant eyewitness accounts by Jewish scholars of some of the most spectacular miracles ever performed by God (earthquakes, darkness, dead walking the streets of Jerusalem, and the rending of the Temple veil) is a point agains the Bibles veracity. If these things had happened as the Bible claims they would have been dutifully recorded by Jewish historians who believed that all such happenings were acts of God and dutifully recorded them. The lack of any mention of the Rending of the Temple veil is the most telling point of all.
So please present your new substantive evidence for the veracity of the Bible.
BTW whether the groups mentioned is denied by the Bible is not relevant until you can prove the Bible. The Idea that their own teachings contradict their claims of being Christian by their own criteria is ludicrous.
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Havoc
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?" -- Quentin Crisp |
5th February 2003, 06:07 PM
| | Senior Member
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| | Join Date: 21st November 2002 Location: Livermore, CA
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Reps: 46 (power: 0) | | | Mormons follow the Old testament and the New Testament. In addition, they have more material that came from Jesus after the New Testament. So to me, they should be more "Christian" than most since they have newer material from Jesus.
Whatever reason you give that Mormon's beliefs or extra books are false, that reason has probably been used to prove the New or Old Testament are false as well.
Scott (Quath) |
5th February 2003, 06:28 PM
|  | Monkey Boy
41   
| | Join Date: 5th February 2002 Location: Ft. Worth, tx
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Reps: 1,057 (power: 17) | | Originally posted by seebs
I don't really form an opinion on things like this; whether or not other people are Christian is unimportant to me. I think they probably don't accept the entire Nicene Creed, so they probably technically don't qualify.
I know you are honest and sincere Seebs and that is why I like to debate you in these forums. However I think you are not thinking of one side of the equation. See I see you not wanting to judge others and that is good. However if a group claiming ot be a Christian denomination actually takes people away from Christ because of their doctrines and theology then the theology and that church must be spoken against. See I believe that it is more loving to speak out against false teachers such as Joseph Smith that persuade ones to accept another gospel. I know you love people and are generally a good guy. But can you see what I am sayign here and why it is important in some circumstances to speak out agianst some churches who would take men away from God?
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Through the power of the Holy Spirit I am resolved to fully know Christ and to serve Him as Lord and Master of my life until I am with my Father in heaven which will be my gain.
To live is Christ and to die is gain. Phil. 2:10
That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Phil 3:10-11 |
5th February 2003, 06:33 PM
| | Monkey Boy
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| | Join Date: 5th February 2002 Location: Ft. Worth, tx
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Reps: 1,057 (power: 17) | | Originally posted by Quath
Mormons follow the Old testament and the New Testament. In addition, they have more material that came from Jesus after the New Testament. So to me, they should be more "Christian" than most since they have newer material from Jesus.
Whatever reason you give that Mormon's beliefs or extra books are false, that reason has probably been used to prove the New or Old Testament are false as well.
Scott (Quath)
That is a good fairy tale but simply not true. For example the book of mormon was first found (supposedly) in a language that has never been used before. I think it was given the name new egyptian heirglyphics or something like that. Now the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek and Armaic. all known languages spoken in the day of the writing. And that is just one of many examples of how the book of mormon falls way short. Another one would be that it contradicts the Bible.
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Through the power of the Holy Spirit I am resolved to fully know Christ and to serve Him as Lord and Master of my life until I am with my Father in heaven which will be my gain.
To live is Christ and to die is gain. Phil. 2:10
That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Phil 3:10-11 |
5th February 2003, 06:36 PM
| | Celtic Witch
51
| | Join Date: 26th July 2002 Location: Realityville
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Blessings: 108,616
Reps: 530 (power: 0) | | | But in reality Blackhawk, how are we to know? It's just as likely the Mormons are the true Christians and you are leading people away from God. We can't use the Bibl;e as the only Criteria because we have no way of knowing if your Scriptures or theirs are the correct ones. Both sects claim to be the true Christians, both claim to have the infallibel word of God on their side.
How are we to know?
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Havoc
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?" -- Quentin Crisp |
5th February 2003, 06:41 PM
| | Monkey Boy
41
| | Join Date: 5th February 2002 Location: Ft. Worth, tx
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Reps: 1,057 (power: 17) | | Originally posted by Havoc
Your Bible is your criteria for what is a Christian, but you cannot show that your Bible is the word of God.
Mormons have their criteria for what is a Christian. Their Criteria is just as verifiable as yours. They fit that Criteria.
Jehovah's Witness have their criteria for what is a Christian. Their Criteria is just as verifiable as yours. They fit that Criteria.
Christadelphians have their criteria for what is a Christian. Their Criteria is just as verifiable as yours. They fit that Criteria.
Once you can actually show, using substantive evidence that your Bible is indeed the word of God then you have a leg to stand on. Until then, what is a Christian is based on a conflivting mass of different criteria, none of whom has any better standing than any other.
No. Why? Well firstit really does not matter if Christianity is right or wrong. That is another point. But if Christianity claims that the Bible is the Word of God and that anything that contradicts that Bible is not Christian, like orthodox Christianity has, then a church that goes against the Bible can't be Christian. From Catholics to Baptists all orthodox denominations use the word of God as a standard for truth and if something goes against the word of God then it is wrong. The Catholics use tradition also but tradition does not go agaisnt the word of God. Jw's and Mormons and all other unorthodox churches have doctrines that go against the word of God. The creeds were produced to give a list of what the church beleives that the word of God teaches and what one has to believe the word of God teaches in order for one to be a Christian. For example one major point is that Jesus is God. The Jws say Jesus is not God. Well whatever they are they are not Christians. Even if they are right Althoguh I do not believe that they are they are still not Christians. Why? Because the Christian religion has been defined and Jws do not conform to the definition. So Jws and Mormons are not Christians and they never were.
__________________
Through the power of the Holy Spirit I am resolved to fully know Christ and to serve Him as Lord and Master of my life until I am with my Father in heaven which will be my gain.
To live is Christ and to die is gain. Phil. 2:10
That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Phil 3:10-11 |
5th February 2003, 06:46 PM
|  | Jedi Master
27  
| | Join Date: 5th June 2002 Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 2,689
Blessings: 90,034 My Mood 
Reps: 62,343 (power: 75) | | This is a debate forum. I'm debating. If that bothers you perhaps you should consider whether you really want to be here.
Yes, but you are not a Christian and therefore have no right on who and who should not be considered Christian. How would you like it if I went around claiming who is and isn't Wiccan (or whatever you are) when I'm not one myself.
Mormon beliefs contradict scripture, and the Nicene Creed (which is basically a summary of what Christians believe) and therefore should not be considered Christian. Their beliefs are heretical.
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"Ach, stick it up yer trakkans!"
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5th February 2003, 06:48 PM
| | Celtic Witch
51
| | Join Date: 26th July 2002 Location: Realityville
Posts: 4,714
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Reps: 530 (power: 0) | | Originally posted by Blackhawk
No. Why? Well firstit really does not matter if Christianity is right or wrong. That is another point. But if Christianity claims that the Bible is the Word of God and that anything that contradicts that Bible is not Christian, like orthodox Christianity has, then a church that goes against the Bible can't be Christian. From Catholics to Baptists all orthodox denominations use the word of God as a standard for truth and if something goes against the word of God then it is wrong. The Catholics use tradition also but tradition does not go agaisnt the word of God. Jw's and Mormons and all other unorthodox churches have doctrines that go against the word of God. The creeds were produced to give a list of what the church beleives that the word of God teaches and what one has to believe the word of God teaches in order for one to be a Christian. For example one major point is that Jesus is God. The Jws say Jesus is not God. Well whatever they are they are not Christians. Even if they are right Althoguh I do not believe that they are they are still not Christians. Why? Because the Christian religion has been defined and Jws do not conform to the definition. So Jws and Mormons are not Christians and they never were.
The only common definition is that a Christian is one who follows Christ. Anything beyond that is in dispute.
The concept that the your Bible is the criteria for Christianity is your criteria. You have not shown that it is the only valid criteria, or even more valid than the Mormon or JW criteria.
That's really what it comes down to. Who's criteria is correct? You cannot show that your Bible is the infallible Word of God so your criteria cannot superceed theirs. Both of you claim to have the God given Criteria, none of you can show it.
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Havoc
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?" -- Quentin Crisp |
5th February 2003, 06:54 PM
| | Monkey Boy
41
| | Join Date: 5th February 2002 Location: Ft. Worth, tx
Posts: 4,903
Blessings: 66,359
Reps: 1,057 (power: 17) | | Originally posted by Havoc
The only common definition is that a Christian is one who folloxs Christ. Anything beyond that is in dispute.
The concept that the your Bible is the criteria for Christianity is your criteria. You have not shown that it is the only valid criteria, or even more valid than the Mormon or JW criteria.
That's really what it comes down to. Who's criteria is correct? You cannot show that your Bible is the infallible Word of God so your criteria cannot superceed theirs. Both of you claim to have the God given Criteria, none of you can show it.
no the Bible being used as a guide for the truths of Christianity is not my critera. It is a historical theological critera that orthodox Christians have used for millenium.
And again it for this argument it reallyt does not matter if the Bible is the word of God or if it infallible. The point is that Christianity has historically taught that the Bible is the word of God and if a teaching goes against the Bible then it is not Christian. A group sets up its beliefs. I can't say I am an american because I have lived all my life and was born in France. Just like I can't say I am an atheist and believe in God. It does not work.
__________________
Through the power of the Holy Spirit I am resolved to fully know Christ and to serve Him as Lord and Master of my life until I am with my Father in heaven which will be my gain.
To live is Christ and to die is gain. Phil. 2:10
That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Phil 3:10-11 | | |
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