bite and devour one another

JohnR7 · #1 30th July 2006, 07:27 AM

There are a lot of science programs on TV that show birds, animals and fish devouring one another. As far as science is concerned it has always been this way. When they study animals that are now extinct they see teeth that would indicate there were flesh eating animals. When they study the bones they see what looks like teeth marks on them. Grass eating animals like a cow usually have different teeth then a flesh eating animal does.

Also, when we study man we see that he has been a hunter and had weapons for what they say is a long time, perhaps millions of years. But in the Bible we read that there is a time coming when "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the Lord.

Some christians believe that the reason the animals devour one another is because of the fall. Eden was to be a paradise and it was to expand and fill the whole world. But first Eve, then Adam and then Cain all got into trouble with God for their disobedience.

This they say set everything in motion where the animals including man began to devour one another. Even here on this forum, like wild animals, people try to tear each other apart and devour one another. The theory of evolution would say that man is no different than the animals and so there is no reason for us to hold ourselves to a higher standard then animals.

Galatians 5:14-15
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [15] But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent's food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,"
Says the Lord.

I guess I really got to ask are things they way they seem or appear to be? Is there not a chance that this world is really only 6,000 years old and it just takes on the appearance of age because of the fall?

I understand the expanding universe, receding moon, geological ages and other evidence for a "old" universe. But there are other things that have to be taken into consideration and they can not be ignored the way science wants to ignore them.

We have to take the fall and God's plan of redemption and salvation into consideration. The theory of evolution disregards all of that. So for the most part it is worthless, because it does not address the most important thing in all of time and all of the world. They theory tends to ignore God and His plan. The plan that God has for this world that He makes very clear to us.

It would be nice if we could work out the differences between science and religion. But it does not look like it is going to happen because people have to much of a mentality of wanting to bite and devour one another. God has a plan of redemption for this world. But it seems to be off in the future, because the fish, birds and the animals are still devouring one another.

People are still shooting at each other for no good reason. There is still violence in the world. This is not the world that we are told that God plans and intends. For we are told that nothing shall hurt or destroy in God's Kingdom on His Holy Mountain.

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 2:4
He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Tomk80 · #2 30th July 2006, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

There are a lot of science programs on TV that show birds, animals and fish devouring one another. As far as science is concerned it has always been this way. When they study animals that are now extinct they see teeth that would indicate there were flesh eating animals. When they study the bones they see what looks like teeth marks on them. Grass eating animals like a cow usually have different teeth then a flesh eating animal does.

Also, when we study man we see that he has been a hunter and had weapons for what they say is a long time, perhaps millions of years. But in the Bible we read that there is a time coming when "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the Lord.

Some christians believe that the reason the animals devour one another is because of the fall. Eden was to be a paradise and it was to expand and fill the whole world. But first Eve, then Adam and then Cain all got into trouble with God for their disobedience.

This they say set everything in motion where the animals including man began to devour one another. Even here on this forum, like wild animals, people try to tear each other apart and devour one another. The theory of evolution would say that man is no different than the animals and so there is no reason for us to hold ourselves to a higher standard then animals.

Galatians 5:14-15
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [15] But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent's food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,"
Says the Lord.

I guess I really got to ask are things they way they seem or appear to be? Is there not a chance that this world is really only 6,000 years old and it just takes on the appearance of age because of the fall?

Is there a remote possibility? Of course. But it is gainsaid by all the evidence. There is no evidence of a young earth, global flood and creatures all being nice to each and not eating each other. When looking at creatures like T-rex, with a dentistry and build completely unsuited for eating vegetation, the last one is especially suspicious. Of course we could miss something, but we do not draw conclusion based on the remote possibility that we might have missed something. There is no reason to do so.

I understand the expanding universe, receding moon, geological ages and other evidence for a "old" universe. But there are other things that have to be taken into consideration and they can not be ignored the way science wants to ignore them.

Why not? Science describes the natural world. This is what the natural world indicates. There was no global flood. God or no God, that leaves unchanged that there is no evidence for a global flood.

We have to take the fall and God's plan of redemption and salvation into consideration. The theory of evolution disregards all of that. So for the most part it is worthless, because it does not address the most important thing in all of time and all of the world. They theory tends to ignore God and His plan. The plan that God has for this world that He makes very clear to us.

It is worthless when addressing salvation, yes. It is not worthless when addressing the history of the earth and the universe.

It would be nice if we could work out the differences between science and religion. But it does not look like it is going to happen because people have to much of a mentality of wanting to bite and devour one another. God has a plan of redemption for this world. But it seems to be off in the future, because the fish, birds and the animals are still devouring one another.

People are still shooting at each other for no good reason. There is still violence in the world. This is not the world that we are told that God plans and intends. For we are told that nothing shall hurt or destroy in God's Kingdom on His Holy Mountain.

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 2:4
He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Worked out long ago, in the 1600's already. "The bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go". That YE, OE and GAP-creationists and ID-ists do not want to accept that, does not mean it hasn't been worked out already. It just mean some people are stubborn in accepting the answers to already solved questions.

JohnR7 · #3 30th July 2006, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Tomk80

When looking at creatures like T-rex, with a dentistry and build completely unsuited for eating vegetation,

The T-Rex was long extinct before God created Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden in Eden.
Perhaps God had a new world planned where the animals did not devour one another.

Isaiah 2:4
He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

notto · #4 30th July 2006, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

The T-Rex was long extinct before God created Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden in Eden.
Perhaps God had a new world planned where the animals did not devour one another.

Which would of course explain the teeth of a lion.

Tomk80 · #5 30th July 2006, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

The T-Rex was long extinct before God created Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden in Eden.
Perhaps God had a new world planned where the animals did not devour one another.

Isaiah 2:4
He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Not if the world is 6000 years old, as per your own question. Remember John, you wrote:

Originally Posted by you

I guess I really got to ask are things they way they seem or appear to be? Is there not a chance that this world is really only 6,000 years old and it just takes on the appearance of age because of the fall?

It would at least help if you kept track of what you wrote yourself.

Tomk80 · #6 30th July 2006, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

Once again you totally miss what I was trying to say. Then you make up a story about what you think I might have said, yet one has nothing to do with the other.

If you do not want to put the time and the efforted into understanding this fine, don't. You have all the freedom to do whatever you do or do not want to do.

Could you actually react to his point, or my main points, instead of dodging the issue. His post was right on the mark.

JohnR7 · #7 30th July 2006, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by notto

Which would of course explain the teeth of a lion.

Maybe you are not ready for this. Maybe you would be more happy if we talked about David and the story of how he killed a lion and went on to kill a giant. Perhaps that would be more interesting for you than to talk about lions eating straw.

Isaiah 11:6-7
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
[7] The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

But if you were interested in the passage we are actually talking about. It is in Isaiah, were we learn that there is a time coming in the future when the lion will eat straw like the ox.

Now, how do evolutionists explain this? If you don't have an answer, just be honest and admit it. Evolution does not have an answer for this. Either the theory covers this, or it does not cover it.

JohnR7 · #8 30th July 2006, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Tomk80

Not if the world is 6000 years old, as per your own question. Remember John, you wrote:

It would at least help if you kept track of what you wrote yourself.

Yes as Dr Wise says, you have to disregard science if you want to try and say the world is only 6,000 years old. The scientific evidence a world older then 6,000 years. The GAP theory seems to fit the best here for me. But I know that other people like other theorys like TE, YEC, OEC and so on.

notto · #9 30th July 2006, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

Now, how do evolutionists explain this?

It's an analogy. Evolutionists (and the theory of evolution) don't typically explain literary devices used by Biblical writers. Then again, neither do meteorologists explain the literary devices used by Biblical writers that relate to weather.

Meteorology must be worthless by your standards.

Is Meterorology worthless because it disregards salvation and redemption? Why or why not?

You suggest that any science that disregards salvation and redemption is worthless. How have I missed your point?

If that wasn't your point, then what was your point? What have I missed?

Tomk80 · #10 30th July 2006, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by JohnR7

Maybe you are not ready for this. Maybe you would be more happy if we talked about David and the story of how he killed a lion and went on to kill a giant. Perhaps that would be more interesting for you than to talk about lions eating straw.

Isaiah 11:6-7
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
[7] The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

But if you were interested in the passage we are actually talking about. It is in Isaiah, were we learn that there is a time coming in the future when the lion will eat straw like the ox.

Now, how do evolutionists explain this? If you don't have an answer, just be honest and admit it. Evolution does not have an answer for this. Either the theory covers this, or it does not cover it.

Why would we have to explain it. It's a prophecy about the future, not about the past. We are talking about the past, remember John? You know, the nagging questions you are asking about whether the evidence could indicate a young earth and which answer science can provide and which it cannot?

Seriously John, if you have no clue what you want to discuss yourself, accusing us of missing the point blows fuses on irony meters worldwide.