The Rapture

ScottHere · #1 24th July 2006, 01:05 AM

I believe in the rapture of 1 Thess. 4:16-17. The question is, what rapture view should we uphold? I have some questions concerning Pre and Post Tribulational view.

Pre Trib:

1. What glory would it bring to God to pull His Church out of this world before the Tribulation?..Before the fight? We are His Army.

2. 'I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one' Jn. 17:15.

'The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of jugement to be punished' 2 Pet. 2:9.

Jesus prays to the Father that we not be taken out of this world, but rather be protected from Satan. Peter says God knows how to protect the godly out of temptations, or trouble. Is it possible God can protect us while we go through the Tribulation?

3. All Christians are meant to be glorified with Christ {1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Jn. 3:2}. That will not happen if the rapture happens before the Tribulation. What about those who come to Christ during the Tribulation?

4. Wasn't the pre tribulational rapture doctrine invented in the 1800's?

Post Trib:

1. 'And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints' Rev. 19:8.

'And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean' Rev. 19:14.

These two passages in Scripture seem to have something in common. First the "she" mentioned in verse 8, is obviously the Church, and she is wearing fine linen. In verse 14, the armies of heaven follow Jesus, and His army is wearing fine linen, just like is describes in verse 8. Wouldn't there have to be a previous rapture for the Church to be in heaven and be following Jesus from heaven?

2. The Second Coming of Jesus seems a rather odd time for the rapture to take place. When He returns, He will be ready for war {Rev. 19:11}. It seems as though the rapture would get in the way, because He will be charging to earth.

These are all the questions I have for now. I'm not trying to prove a point, or prove a certian rapture view over another. I'm just trying to figure out which one to uphold.
God Bless.

Big Mouth Nana · #2 24th July 2006, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by ScottHere

These are all the questions I have for now. I'm not trying to prove a point, or prove a certian rapture view over another. I'm just trying to figure out which one to uphold.

The one that makes the most sense biblically. The scriptures that you posted for post trib make a lot more sense then a pretrib rapture. I am post trib, and was pre-trib for over 30 years...until the light came on in my Spirit

. If you have a good bible concordance, do a study on the day of the Lord and what happens. He comes back for the church on the day of the Lord, after the tribulation and right before the wrath.
With what is going on in the middle east right now, I can just imagine that the pre-trib crowd are anxiously awaiting that trumpet to sound. Not going to happen until the day of the Lord

IReckonSow · #3 24th July 2006, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by ScottHere

I believe in the rapture of 1 Thess. 4:16-17. The question is, what rapture view should we uphold? I have some questions concerning Pre and Post Tribulational view.

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Hey Scoothere
Do you know when the "Day of the Lord" will come to pass? Pre trib? NOPE. Mid trib? NOPE. If ya believe the scriptures, no more questions.

jeffweeder · #4 24th July 2006, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by ScottHere

I believe in the rapture of 1 Thess. 4:16-17. The question is, what rapture view should we uphold? I have some questions concerning Pre and Post Tribulational view.

Pre Trib:

1. What glory would it bring to God to pull His Church out of this world before the Tribulation?..Before the fight? We are His Army.

2. 'I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one' Jn. 17:15.

'The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of jugement to be punished' 2 Pet. 2:9.

Jesus prays to the Father that we not be taken out of this world, but rather be protected from Satan. Peter says God knows how to protect the godly out of temptations, or trouble. Is it possible God can protect us while we go through the Tribulation?

very good points, all things are possible...with God

3. All Christians are meant to be glorified with Christ {1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Jn. 3:2}. That will not happen if the rapture happens before the Tribulation. What about those who come to Christ during the Tribulation?

your on the right track, i believe

4. Wasn't the pre tribulational rapture doctrine invented in the 1800's?

Post Trib:

1. 'And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints' Rev. 19:8.

'And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean' Rev. 19:14.

These two passages in Scripture seem to have something in common. First the "she" mentioned in verse 8, is obviously the Church, and she is wearing fine linen. In verse 14, the armies of heaven follow Jesus, and His army is wearing fine linen, just like is describes in verse 8. Wouldn't there have to be a previous rapture for the Church to be in heaven and be following Jesus from heaven?

2. The Second Coming of Jesus seems a rather odd time for the rapture to take place. When He returns, He will be ready for war {Rev. 19:11}. It seems as though the rapture would get in the way, because He will be charging to earth.

read 2 thess 1

These are all the questions I have for now. I'm not trying to prove a point, or prove a certian rapture view over another. I'm just trying to figure out which one to uphold.
God Bless.

To me ,as the early church were in constant tribulation, wrote to encourage the believers to hold firm and endure persecution, it doesnt seem to make sense that they were preaching pre tribulation ,when they were enduring tribulation.
Jesus says himself...after the trib of those days.
I also believe that the trib is longer than what most people believe; in that the rev scene of those who came out of the GT ,was a number no-one could count.

inhisdebt · #5 24th July 2006, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by ScottHere

I believe in the rapture of 1 Thess. 4:16-17. The question is, what rapture view should we uphold? I have some questions concerning Pre and Post Tribulational view.

Pre Trib:

1. What glory would it bring to God to pull His Church out of this world before the Tribulation?..Before the fight? We are His Army.

2. 'I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one' Jn. 17:15.

'The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of jugement to be punished' 2 Pet. 2:9.

Jesus prays to the Father that we not be taken out of this world, but rather be protected from Satan. Peter says God knows how to protect the godly out of temptations, or trouble. Is it possible God can protect us while we go through the Tribulation?

3. All Christians are meant to be glorified with Christ {1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Jn. 3:2}. That will not happen if the rapture happens before the Tribulation. What about those who come to Christ during the Tribulation?

4. Wasn't the pre tribulational rapture doctrine invented in the 1800's?

Post Trib:

1. 'And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints' Rev. 19:8.

'And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean' Rev. 19:14.

These two passages in Scripture seem to have something in common. First the "she" mentioned in verse 8, is obviously the Church, and she is wearing fine linen. In verse 14, the armies of heaven follow Jesus, and His army is wearing fine linen, just like is describes in verse 8. Wouldn't there have to be a previous rapture for the Church to be in heaven and be following Jesus from heaven

No as you see in the 5th seal the white linen is presented to the saints during the tribulation but must wait until the remainder of there brethren are killed, thus it must be the souls of the dead saints that you see presented there, not the raptured bodies of the saints.

2. The Second Coming of Jesus seems a rather odd time for the rapture to take place. When He returns, He will be ready for war {Rev. 19:11}. It seems as though the rapture would get in the way, because He will be charging to earth.

Zech 14 and many other OT scriptures show that the second coming is the time that messiah comes to save his peaple, A rescue mission if you will for those jews and christians that have been persecuted for christ

These are all the questions I have for now. I'm not trying to prove a point, or prove a certian rapture view over another. I'm just trying to figure out which one to uphold.
God Bless.

You have much to learn yet, pray,start reading and highlighting in isaiah anything that speaks to you,and you will be fine, one caution divorce yourself from all preconcieved notions you have held and dilligently seek the truth, wether you like the results or not.

JM · #6 24th July 2006, 07:31 AM

Barraco · #7 24th July 2006, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by ScottHere

I believe in the rapture of 1 Thess. 4:16-17. The question is, what rapture view should we uphold? I have some questions concerning Pre and Post Tribulational view.

Pre Trib:

1. What glory would it bring to God to pull His Church out of this world before the Tribulation?..Before the fight? We are His Army.

2. 'I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one' Jn. 17:15.

'The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of jugement to be punished' 2 Pet. 2:9.

Jesus prays to the Father that we not be taken out of this world, but rather be protected from Satan. Peter says God knows how to protect the godly out of temptations, or trouble. Is it possible God can protect us while we go through the Tribulation?

3. All Christians are meant to be glorified with Christ {1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Jn. 3:2}. That will not happen if the rapture happens before the Tribulation. What about those who come to Christ during the Tribulation?

4. Wasn't the pre tribulational rapture doctrine invented in the 1800's?

Post Trib:

1. 'And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints' Rev. 19:8.

'And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean' Rev. 19:14.

These two passages in Scripture seem to have something in common. First the "she" mentioned in verse 8, is obviously the Church, and she is wearing fine linen. In verse 14, the armies of heaven follow Jesus, and His army is wearing fine linen, just like is describes in verse 8. Wouldn't there have to be a previous rapture for the Church to be in heaven and be following Jesus from heaven?

2. The Second Coming of Jesus seems a rather odd time for the rapture to take place. When He returns, He will be ready for war {Rev. 19:11}. It seems as though the rapture would get in the way, because He will be charging to earth.

These are all the questions I have for now. I'm not trying to prove a point, or prove a certian rapture view over another. I'm just trying to figure out which one to uphold.
God Bless.

I think many should learn the history of the TRIBULATIOIN doctrine before they tackle the rapture theory.

From what I've learned, the either the Great Tribulation was fulfilled during the dark ages when the Holy Roman Empire executed murder upon thousands of Christians for not submitting to the Papacy's teachings, or Jesus just neglected to tell us about that GREAT TIME OF TROUBLE.

God bless

Barraco · #8 24th July 2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by inhisdebt

You have much to learn yet, pray,start reading and highlighting in isaiah anything that speaks to you,and you will be fine, one caution divorce yourself from all preconcieved notions you have held and dilligently seek the truth, wether you like the results or not.

I agree, man made structures of prophecy teaching will most likely mislead you. Read the words of prophecy without preconceptions and forget about the tribulation and rapture; then you'll be able see clearly what Christ was suggesting when he said, "Behold, I come as a thief." God bless

LittleLambofJesus · #9 24th July 2006, 10:19 AM

The best thing to do is study the greek wording in Paul's epistles as it is the same event as the Olivet Discourse/Daniel 12/Zech 14.

Who are these that are "fleeing"? The "dead" are raised, but the ones "alive" flee to safety, and since revelation happens around Jerusalem/Judeah, that is where they are told to flee from.

Zech 14:5 Then you shall flee [through] My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, [And] all the saints with You.

Luke 21:20 " But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

http://ourworld.cs.com/preteristabcs/id84.htm

Correlatively, those who have fallen asleep “through Jesus” (dia tou Ièsous) can expect the same as Jesus after their death, i.e., resurrection. The prepositional phrase dia tou Ièsous is to be linked with the participle koimèthentas, since linking it to axei (“he will bring”) is grammatically difficult and superfluous in light of that verb's subsequent sun autò (“with him”). The faithful who have died are thus spoken of as having slept from the moment of death in relation to Jesus. 35 Although an unusual way of putting it, Wanamaker thinks dia tou Ièsous is “little different from Paul's 'in Christ' formula.” The dead are thus characterized as “in communion” with Christ, as “being-in-Christ.” 37

http://www.hisremnant.org/roach/Rapture.html

Ah, THE RAPTURE, what an intriguing subject! Scores of untold saints have wondered with great concern, "When will it happen? Will it be in my lifetime? Who of my loved ones will miss it and have to go through the tribulation, and then off to an eternal hell? Or will I myself miss it, and stand below watching the few lucky ones fly away into the clouds when the trumpet sounds?" Hmmm...

A Brother In Christ · #10 25th July 2006, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by ScottHere

I believe in the rapture of 1 Thess. 4:16-17. The question is, what rapture view should we uphold? I have some questions concerning Pre and Post Tribulational view.

Pre Trib:

1. What glory would it bring to God to pull His Church out of this world before the Tribulation?..Before the fight? We are His Army.

Notice the army is the bride which stays white as snow ... while their savouir is red in blood still doing all the work ....

2. 'I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one' Jn. 17:15.

'The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of jugement to be punished' 2 Pet. 2:9.

Jesus prays to the Father that we not be taken out of this world, but rather be protected from Satan. Peter says God knows how to protect the godly out of temptations, or trouble. Is it possible God can protect us while we go through the Tribulation?

this is jacob trouble[hint ..Jews] daniels 70th week ...church is a mystery to thew Jews prior to the cross

3. All Christians are meant to be glorified with Christ {1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Jn. 3:2}. That will not happen if the rapture happens before the Tribulation. What about those who come to Christ during the Tribulation?

tribulational saints.. rev 7:9,14

4. Wasn't the pre tribulational rapture doctrine invented in the 1800's?

NO

Post Trib:

1. 'And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints' Rev. 19:8.

'And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean' Rev. 19:14.

These two passages in Scripture seem to have something in common. First the "she" mentioned in verse 8, is obviously the Church, and she is wearing fine linen. In verse 14, the armies of heaven follow Jesus, and His army is wearing fine linen, just like is describes in verse 8. Wouldn't there have to be a previous rapture for the Church to be in heaven and be following Jesus from heaven?

church is raptured before rev 4 ...there the one throwing crowns .... 1 thes 2:19, 21 tim 4:8, james 1:12, 1 peter 5:4, 1 cor 9:25

2. The Second Coming of Jesus seems a rather odd time for the rapture to take place. When He returns, He will be ready for war {Rev. 19:11}. It seems as though the rapture would get in the way, because He will be charging to earth.

These are all the questions I have for now. I'm not trying to prove a point, or prove a certian rapture view over another. I'm just trying to figure out which one to uphold.
God Bless.

John 3:36
1 thes 1:10
2 thes 2:1-9