Digging into sheol (take 2)

jereth · #1 12th July 2006, 10:27 PM

Amazing.

I started a thread, challenging YECists to offer up their understanding of sheol. Despite >100 posts, they've managed to dodge the question entirely!

Don't you see that this is a very serious issue that you (YECs) have to contend with? Unless you can somehow explain away sheol (all 66 occurences of it in the old testament, as well as new testament references), you have to face the fact that the Hebrew understanding of cosmology was in keeping with the mythological views of ANE cultures. Namely, a three tiered universe, with heaven above, separated from the Earth by a sea of waters and a solid vault; the Earth in the middle; and sheol (with the waters of the great deep) beneath the earth.

And given that Genesis 1 describes creation in terms of this 3-storey cosmology, the scientific-historical interpretation of Genesis 1 is thus rendered impossible. Day 2 of creation, in particular, becomes utterly meaningless by this interpretation.

so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (Php 2)

And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it (Rev 5)

And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever! (Rev 5)

If they dig into Sheol, from there shall my hand take them; if they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down. (Amos 9:2)

jereth · #2 15th July 2006, 03:17 AM

Time for the million dollar question, Willtor. Yes, you guessed it. Where is sheol?

Willtor · #3 15th July 2006, 03:42 AM

Sheol is an undeveloped doctrine that deals with the abode of the dead. Undeveloped though it was, it is apparent that the authors of Scripture realized that they would persist after death. Sheol was a loose reference to where they would persist. It is a weak apprehension subject to speculation (wandering spirits who are gradually forgetting, etc.), but I think it is accurate insofar as it speaks to this persistence.

xpiotosaves · #4 15th July 2006, 04:09 AM

It would be to hard to tell people where it was so it is a representation of where it is.

jereth · #5 15th July 2006, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Willtor

Sheol is an undeveloped doctrine that deals with the abode of the dead. Undeveloped though it was, it is apparent that the authors of Scripture realized that they would persist after death. Sheol was a loose reference to where they would persist. It is a weak apprehension subject to speculation (wandering spirits who are gradually forgetting, etc.), but I think it is accurate insofar as it speaks to this persistence.

Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't think "undeveloped" is quite the right word. Even in the Old Testament, the existence and location of sheol (under the earth) is quite well established. By intertestamental times, it seems that there was quite an elaborate doctrine of sheol, with the separation of the righteous and the wicked into separate sections. In the New Testament you have Jesus referencing these 2 sections (Luke 16, Lazarus and Dives). 2 Peter speaks of the fallen angels being held in Tartarus (a reference to the Book of Enoch?), Jesus himself was in hades prior to his resurrection (Acts 2), and in Revelation we are told that the dead will be raised from hades.

So it really does seem that in biblical times there was quite a concrete conception of the realm of the dead.

xpiotosaves · #6 15th July 2006, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by jereth

Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't think "undeveloped" is quite the right word. Even in the Old Testament, the existence and location of sheol (under the earth) is quite well established. By intertestamental times, it seems that there was quite an elaborate doctrine of sheol, with the separation of the righteous and the wicked into separate sections. In the New Testament you have Jesus referencing these 2 sections (Luke 16, Lazarus and Dives). 2 Peter speaks of the fallen angels being held in Tartarus (a reference to the Book of Enoch?), Jesus himself was in hades prior to his resurrection (Acts 2), and in Revelation we are told that the dead will be raised from hades.

So it really does seem that in biblical times there was quite a concrete conception of the realm of the dead.

which verse in acts 2?

Willtor · #7 15th July 2006, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by jereth

Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't think "undeveloped" is quite the right word. Even in the Old Testament, the existence and location of sheol (under the earth) is quite well established. By intertestamental times, it seems that there was quite an elaborate doctrine of sheol, with the separation of the righteous and the wicked into separate sections. In the New Testament you have Jesus referencing these 2 sections (Luke 16, Lazarus and Dives). 2 Peter speaks of the fallen angels being held in Tartarus (a reference to the Book of Enoch?), Jesus himself was in hades prior to his resurrection (Acts 2), and in Revelation we are told that the dead will be raised from hades.

So it really does seem that in biblical times there was quite a concrete conception of the realm of the dead.

The OT references references are far more vague than this. There is the question as to how much the Book of Enoch (or work done in that author's time) did to develop Sheol and whether it was as a result of the introduction of Greek culture (which had tried to think systematically about these things in their own cosmology and theology).

As I say, though, the OT references are vague and I'd have to read more of the pre-Enoch work to have your confidence.

jereth · #8 16th July 2006, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Willtor

The OT references references are far more vague than this. There is the question as to how much the Book of Enoch (or work done in that author's time) did to develop Sheol and whether it was as a result of the introduction of Greek culture (which had tried to think systematically about these things in their own cosmology and theology).

Agreed. I guess I was just trying to say that the Old Testament concept of sheol, vague as it was, contained the seeds from which much more elaborate ideas later developed.

That aside, there can still be very little doubt that the Old Testament scriptures assume the three-tiered cosmos widely held by ANE cultures, and that the Genesis creation story is explicitly based upon this cosmology. That's the point I'm trying to make -- it was instrumental in my own "conversion" away from YECism.

Originally Posted by xpiotosaves

which verse in acts 2?

The references to hades occurs in Peter's sermon. He is quoting Psalm 16, where the original word was sheol.

24"But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25"For David says of Him,
'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE;
FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED;
MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,
NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;
YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30"And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to sit one of his descendants on the throne,
31he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
32"This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Assyrian · #9 16th July 2006, 11:32 AM

Technically, sheol, the grave, is in our universe, a lot of church yards have their own sheol. But you also get sheol used as a metaphor for the abode of the dead, though this is not defined, nor are we told where it is.

Now when the poll asks did the ancient believe sheol was part of the cosmos, you need to define cosmos too. Are we talking about the physical universe? I which case I don't think the ancient Hebrews would have thought of the spiritual sheol as a physical place they could visit. However their cosmos may be one which consisted of physical and spiritual realms, in which case sheol was part of the cosmos.

However the big problem with metaphors like sheol, is most people who use them don't actually think in terms of what is the actual difference between the metaphorical description and the reality it describes. Unless an ancient Hebrew actually asked the question, the question is meaningless, or at least as indefinite as Schrodinger's cat

xpiotosaves · #10 17th July 2006, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Assyrian

Technically, sheol, the grave, is in our universe, a lot of church yards have their own sheol. But you also get sheol used as a metaphor for the abode of the dead, though this is not defined, nor are we told where it is.

Now when the poll asks did the ancient believe sheol was part of the cosmos, you need to define cosmos too. Are we talking about the physical universe? I which case I don't think the ancient Hebrews would have thought of the spiritual sheol as a physical place they could visit. However their cosmos may be one which consisted of physical and spiritual realms, in which case sheol was part of the cosmos.

However the big problem with metaphors like sheol, is most people who use them don't actually think in terms of what is the actual difference between the metaphorical description and the reality it describes. Unless an ancient Hebrew actually asked the question, the question is meaningless, or at least as indefinite as Schrodinger's cat

Yes. Hebrew is a very earthy language. Sheol means grave and also signifies the land of the dead (this is way there is both righteous and wicked people in sheol because they are both dead. The Hebrew word for heaven means sky. They are both representation of places with words that they already had.