Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
Hmmm! Very interesting. You TEs always rant that unless a person haa some kind of biology degree that opinion is not worth two bits and now when someone does have some biology education and does not agree with evolution you through him out too.
He has an education in cleaning teeth. That's what he does for a living. As a self-professed pastor, I'm sure you would admit that you are better trained to give spiritual advice than, say, a Sunday School teacher. Same difference.
But see TEBeliever's comments re: research and evidence. This is what ultimately counts. As has already been pointed out to you, Martin's claims about the impossibility of evolution via reference to "irreducibly complex" systems have been falsified with science (not to mention bad, god-of-the-gaps theology. What Martin has done is set up a test for God that has been falsified!).
BTW, Dr. Martin was at one time an evolutionist.
I question even this statement, and I hear it a lot. By "evolutionst" do you mean "athiest who didn't question evolution"? Because I think it could hardly be argued that Martin truly understood the ins-and-outs of evolution. If he did, he would hardly be making the statements he does. I studied calculus in high school and university, too, but I would hardly consider myself a mathematician.
__________________ We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universes, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act.
Sometimes some TEs comse aross as rude and arrogant.
It's called being human. Sometimes some YECs come across as rude and arrogant as well.
__________________
Господи помилуй нас.
"I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us." -Martin Luther
It's called being human. Sometimes some YECs come across as rude and arrogant as well.
"The vain attempt at self-justification(also adding self-preservation) is so strong in all of us that we'd rather subjugate than investigate." Is that human?
I think it is....
You gotta recognize your own bias before you do away with it.
I think some philosophies preach "clearing the mind"
I have been called rude and arrogant before when I know for a fact that I was neither. Someone saying that to you puts you in a place you don't deserve to be.
The person asked a question and you answered it and did a VERY GOOD THING and provided examples so someone can spell it out for themselves and maybe build a system of thinking from it just to be called rude and arrogant.
Where does this come from and why does it happen all the time?
I'm not a big fan of Richard Dawkins at all, he hates religion and isn't afraid to admit it. I forget what I was looking up but I stumbled on a video from YouTube that had him and another man named Pastor Ted Haggard(I believe) and they were discussing Evolution. Granted this was Dawkins film so he could edit it how he wants but it came off to me that Ted Haggard was the rude and arrogant person WHILE HE WAS CALLING DAWKINS RUDE AND ARROGANT. You should see the look on his face. It really looked like a man that was scared to represent his position and more willing to intimidate his way out of the situation. I would encourage you all to see the short clip.
The thing is.....it was there too. I remember seeing this "rude and arrogant" bit AGAIN and just wondering to myself, "is the vain attempt at self-justification so strong in all of us that we'd rather subjugate than investigate?" I think now that it might be the case.
I think, Pastor Kevin, that you should give us the benefit of the doubt here. I didn't see anything rude with his post, he was just stating it as fact, which was contrary to your current belief system. Is it possible that when something starts to make sense to you but goes against what you've established as truth you fight without even realizing? You really need to think we are rude and arrogant? Those are ?'s I'm asking....
Now that I've taken some away from you, let me give some back.
As a TE there are times where I do rack my head wondering at literalists. I sit here, confident that if I had a face to face with any of them where I could sit down and show them examples of survival in play over enormous amounts of time, with 20 minutes I'd have them sold. Not because I'm a good salesman, because Evolution is SO EASY TO UNDERSTAND.
Last question: Prose: You find that arriving at 4 for, "what is 2+2" is pretty easy. What would you think of someone who thought it was 5 and showed no sign of wavering? You think that person would think you "rude and arrogant" when you showed no hostility, but just a look of unbelief when you talk to them.
Arrogance isn't hostility, it's a look like you are below me and someone that thinks 2+2=5 might think YOU THINK you are above them.
My prayers are with you.
Thank you TEBeliever for your post. I do appreciate it. I am by no means saying that all TEs are rude and arrogant, only some. Actually I do see some TEs handle discussion with grace. I do try to give the benifit of a doubt. I am speaking only of those being rude and arrogant by using words and make comments that come across as demeaning and hurtful.
I question even this statement, and I hear it a lot. By "evolutionst" do you mean "athiest who didn't question evolution"? Because I think it could hardly be argued that Martin truly understood the ins-and-outs of evolution. If he did, he would hardly be making the statements he does. I studied calculus in high school and university, too, but I would hardly consider myself a mathematician.
Unfortunately we don't know to what extent his knowledge is on evolution, so we really cannot make such a judgement.
Unfortunately we don't know to what extent his knowledge is on evolution, so we really cannot make such a judgement.
Very true. Although the fact Martin writes in his book that he had an "unquestioning belief in Darwinian evolution" kinda makes me wonder. How can one truly come to learn something if we don't question it? I question both my faith and my understanding of evolution all the time, which is why I am so strongly convinced of both.
__________________ We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universes, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act.
Unfortunately we don't know to what extent his knowledge is on evolution, so we really cannot make such a judgement.
Pastor Kevin, you can't do this....
We have to have something that backs it up. With this kind of logic I could tell you I know the beginnings of the Universe and YOU'D HAVE TO BELIEVE ME because I claim to know it.
That's why we depend on peer review and published works and that sort of thing. It forms a reputation for people to expect and build on. This guy doesn't have a reputation other than the one he formed for himself.
Like I said, I'll form a reputation for knowing that I have the beginning all figured out Scientifically and garner a following if that's the case.... and people do that...
Unfortunately we don't know to what extent his knowledge is on evolution, so we really cannot make such a judgement.
To add...
on this note, who can make a judgement?
Don't you see? You are muddying the waters here, asking a ? for which you won't respect any answer. You have a win/win for yourself.
If you recognize you might be wrong in something, you'll end up closer to right in the future.
You WANT this guy to be respected, you brought him up thinking we would just flat out go, "oh, some guy says this, we have to respect him" and that isn't even the case in Scientific circles. Why then, would we uphold on your end?
The Bombadier Beetles is such an old argument, yet another tried and failed experiement. Sure, in the beginning it's a great rallying flag but for whose gain? Is it the Creationists when another argument goes the way of the dinosaurs or the guy that started it with his book sales?
This isn't arrogance, it's simply pattern recognition and disgust. I truly hope you can understand that. I'm not digusted with YECs at all, it's the people that feed on them like Kent Hovind. Kent Hovind KNOWS what he is doing. It isn't that he is teaching something he believes to be correct, he is making money off of it knowing full well that some of it is garbage.
Linear Mode
