Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
It's kinda like someone inviting a married couple into their home and telling the wife of that guest that she cannot refer to herself by her husbands last name. I think in that instance most people would feel insulted somewhat. But I've gone to churches before where I had to subjegate my beliefs because they were in conflict with the doctrines and practices of the particular church. We are to obey those who have authority over us even if they are wrong, unless it violates our conscience, such as the extreme example of say a pastor telling us all to drink poison laced cool aid.
It would seem that since the admoniton to obey those rules was posted immediately after my post that it was meant primarily as a warning for me. However, if that admonition is meant to apply to something I have said, I can't see how.
I wonder if Emma ever invited Zina Huntington to her house? Who Emma say, Welcome Miss Huntington, or Mrs Smith, or Mrs Jacobs or would se play it safe and say. welcome Mrs/Miss Zina Huntington, Jacobs, Smith?
A person according to Webster’s dictionary is a human Individual; Also a personality of a human being self see reference 5.
Now if God is three persons or a human individual according to Webster and tradition; then He would have a personality. I am human, Adolf Hitler is human or person, George Washington is human or person; you are saying God is human or person? The word personality speaks of human personality not a divine nature.
Now a Name is scriptural: NAME A. Noun. onoma ^3686^ is used (I) in general of the "name" by which a person or thing is," "the title and dignity" of the Lord, as in <Eph. 1:21> and <Heb. 1:4>; (II) for all that a "name" implies, of authority, character, rank, majesty, power, excellence, etc., of everything that the "name" covers: (a) of the "Name" of God as expressing His attributes,
“In the name of Jesus” “In the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit”
I have heard there are over 200 different names of God; below are a few examples.
Names of God
ELOHIM Heb. To “swear”, It describes one who stands in a covenant-relationship ratified by an oath. ELOHIM: (GOD) Ex.33:34 God’s goodness, his nature (name, character, authority)
YAHVAH, YAHVAH-EL of compassion and favor, Slow to anger & abundant in loving kindness & faithfulness: keeping loving kindness to a thousand generations, forgetting iniquity and transgression and sin, though leave not utterly unpunished. Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon sons’ sons, unto a third & forth generation. Ex. 34: Rotherham
In Jehovah, we see the righteous Judge. This was the aspect of God’s nature that the Jews considered the most important. They expected Jesus — if He were truly the Messiah — to pour some "fire and brimstone" judgments upon the Romans to deliver His people and set Himself up as king. A suffering Saviour who came to free His people from the bondages of sin so that they could be partakers of His divine nature, did not appeal to them. That was not how they saw God. Sad to say, we are faced with the same attitude in the church system today. Whatever the denomination, the emphasis is on the nature of God as portrayed by His Name, Jehovah. This is almost the only aspect of His nature that they understand. A problem arises when the "judgment" aspect of His nature is considered by itself, with no regard for the other characteristics of His nature which make a perfect balance. As one person said, "I go to church and they just tell me how awful I am and that I’m going to a place I don’t want to go." The name Jehovah is first introduced in Genesis, chapter two. You will see here two names together: LORD God. This means "Jehovah-Elohim." There is a very good reason why these two names should be linked. First, you must understand what aspect of God’s nature Jehovah depicts. We will compare the two names so that you can see the difference. First, in Elohim we see One whose Love works with His creation and overcomes all — no matter what its condition. His will prevails over all hindrances. There is no human condition so low that He cannot "save to the uttermost." In Elohim, we see the nature of God’s Being. And His Being is LOVE! (A mother’s love is a shadow of His great love). We could say that Elohim shows God loving unconditionally because His nature is LOVE. He "has sworn" to love us and to make us like Himself! The name Jehovah reveals God as TRUTH — and the Truth that His nature is righteous is THE EXPRESSION OF HIS BEING. It shows love in its relation to certain qualities in the loved one. In all truest love there must be righteousness. Jer. 23:6 expresses the meaning of Jehovah very clearly: ". . . and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. And His people, even the New Jerusalem — those born from above — shall share His nature — for the Lord will also call them by this same name. ". . . .Jerusalemshall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, the Lord our righteousness" Jer. 33:16. Jehovah loves righteousness because that is His true state of Being. Evil is not true being — but the negation of it — therefore evil is not eternal. Because evil is not true, it must be opposed and judged. He who "loves righteousness and hates iniquity" finds in all evil something atagonistic to His nature. Therefore, He must judge all evil until it is destroyed and "mortality is swallowed up of life." This is the lesson of the second name of God revealed to us. Let us look at how our understanding of these aspects of God’s nature affect His people. We have met some followers of Christ who claim to be "sons", yet they feel they can live however they like and it doesn’t matter because God’s Love is unconditional. One young man said to us, "The Lord doesn’t care what I do in the flesh. He’s only interested in my spirit." This is knowing only Elohim — One who loves "in spite of" man’s condition. Knowing the Lord in this limited aspect of His nature can lead to "greasy grace" — a place of presumption — that gives no regard to the truth that His nature is also righteous and He must judge sin in us. If He does not, we could never become like Him, for to become like Him, we must see Him as He is. Then, there is the other side of the coin. Those who know Him only by His nature reavealed in the name Jehovah become judgmental and harsh because they say He is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity. . . "Heb.1:13. They talk like a sinner must be cast out of His presence because of his sin, for the Lord can’t stand to look upon evil! This word "look" means "to look intently at; to regard with pleasure, favor or care." This new revelation of God’s nature shows us that evil must be judged because it crosses His nature, and is antagonistic to it. He is now considering the quality of our being and judging that which is opposed to His righteousness. Do you see why the words LORD God (Jehovah-Elohim) are used together? The Jews were actually afraid to pronounce "Jehovah" by itself. They would read "Adonai" instead, or "Elohim", for they knew Jehovah was the aspect of God’s nature that would judge their unrighteousness. Our Father would have us to understand that what He is in his Being and how He expresses that Being must go hand-in-hand or we do not see Him truly. When He judges, it is not without love and mercy! He must judge, but it is for our good, not for punish ment —but to correct us! I have heard one parent say to to the other one, "It is not fair that I should have to perform all the discipline in the family, and you do all the loving and giving. It makes me look like an ogre and it makes you ‘the good guy’. We need to come to a balance here, because we both love our children and yet we must judge their bad behaviour so that they will grow up to be a credit to us." This is exactly what I am saying about the nature of God! We ought not to regard Him only by one aspect of His nature. We need to achieve a balance between "I can do anything I want because God’s Love is unconditional" and "God’s going to get me if I fall or fail." We need to first see Elohim — unconditional love — not dependent upon our state —but upon His relationship to us. Then, we need also to see that His nature is Truth — and the true expression of His nature is righteousness. And, though He loves us, He must deal with the sin in our nature. He does this on the basis of HIS LOVE FOR US, not on a basis of WRATH BECAUSE WE ARE SINNERS and He is too holy to look upon us! He more than looked upon our sin — He bore it upon Himself!
God is not only teaching His Word but also His Nature.
Jehovah T’ Sidkinu, The LORD OUR Righteousness (Jer. 23:6) Jehovah M’ Kaddesh, The Lord Who Sanctifies (Lev. 20:7) Jehovah Shalom, The Lord our peace (Judges 6:24) Jehovah Shammah, The Lord our ever Present God (Ezek. 48:35) Jehovah Rapha, The Lord our Healer (Ezek. 15:26) Jehovah Jireh, The Lord our provider (Gen. 22:14) Jehovah Nissi, The Lord our Victory (Ex. 17:15) Jehovah Rohi, The Lord our Shepherd (Ps. 23:1) Jehovah T’sur, The Lord our Strength (Ps. 19:14)
I have glanced through every page of this thread just now, and it doesn't seem like many nontrinitarians have posted, so I thought I would give my opinion on what it means to be a Christian.
Trinitarians argue that the Bible shows that the nature of God is trinity. Nontrinitarians argue that the same Bible shows that God is not trinity in form. Despite, us using the same Bible, we are referred to as heretics to the Catholic (Universal) Church. I say, that we are not, but we believe in God as the Bible teaches, whereas trinitarians do not understand the Bible properly and are too influenced by tradition and creeds. You would say that I don't understand the bible properly, I know, but I don't see when in history the word "Christian" and its' definition of beliefs, was owned only by the Nicene Creed and anything differing to what is said in a fallible creed is then heresy, even though it agrees with the Bible, at least arguably so. Since when were copyrights sold as to what the definition of a word was?
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
I have glanced through every page of this thread just now, and it doesn't seem like many nontrinitarians have posted, so I thought I would give my opinion on what it means to be a Christian.
Trinitarians argue that the Bible shows that the nature of God is trinity. Nontrinitarians argue that the same Bible shows that God is not trinity in form. Despite, us using the same Bible, we are referred to as heretics to the Catholic (Universal) Church. I say, that we are not, but we believe in God as the Bible teaches, whereas trinitarians do not understand the Bible properly and are too influenced by tradition and creeds. You would say that I don't understand the bible properly, I know, but I don't see when in history the word "Christian" and its' definition of beliefs, was owned only by the Nicene Creed and anything differing to what is said in a fallible creed is then heresy, even though it agrees with the Bible, at least arguably so. Since when were copyrights sold as to what the definition of a word was?
The creeds are based on Scripture not tradition and heresies are not arguably so based on Scripture.
The LDS church is not Christian - contrary to their assertions. The problems go far beyond their treatment of the Trinity.
The term Christian is to be Christ like. LDS theology is about following Christ. To say that LDS is not Christian because the do not subcribe to the Trinitarian view as put for in the Nicene Creed, makes no sense. Why would any person or group be judged Christian or not based on whether they believe on a Creed that was forced on a Christian world by an Roman dictator who was a questionable Christian. When at the time the majority of the Biblical scholors believed the Bible did not support the idea of the trinity of three in one. Today, the Bible still does not support the idea of the trinity or three in one. So to say one is a heretic for believing the Godhead is comprised of three separate and distinct personalities is also saying that the Bible teaches heresy. The best Biblical examples can be found at the Baptism of Jesus where there is a voice from heaven saying "This is my son in whom I am well pleased" and the Holy Spirit in the form of dove decending from heven and Jesus himself coming out of the waters of baptism. (Matt 3:16-17, Luke 3:21-22, Mark 1:10-11) Additionally when Stephen was being put to death the heaven opened and Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God the Father (Acts 7:55-56) again two separate and distinct personalities.
How about the seven Spirits of God in Isaiah 2:11 where do they come in?
Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Now is the Holy Sprit separate as a spirit if he is called the Spirit of Jesus or the Spirit of Christ or the, or the Holy Sprit, or the Spirit of Truth or the Spirit of God? Spirit of Christ means anointing; but Jesus is the Christ? When I pray should I pray to one or all three or perhaps two?
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. I thought that was the Holy spirit job; why is the Spirit of the son in your heart?
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Philippians 1:19 19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
It is hard to describe God in terms that are normally used to describe humans. I don't particularly like using the word "person"; I prefer "being". And I do see distinct "beings" in the God family (or Godhead, as some prefer to call it). And I would also like to note here that I liked johnd's comparison of the God Family to the marriage of a man and woman. I agree totally that the beings within the God Family are One, the same as a husband and wife are One.
Of course, as I said before though, I see only TWO beings, not three.
I don't accept the Holy Spirit as a being that is completely seperate from God. I do not deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. I just don't accept that it is a completely seperate being in the God Family. As I also stated before, I believe that the Holy Spirit is the power of God... the power of the Father and the Son, and that after the Resurrection, it became the manifested power of God and the presence of Jesus Christ.
I do still believe that the Spirit is a part of God in that it eminates from God. And yes, I will even go a step further and say that God can make it take a form of it's own, such as when it appeared as a dove. However, the dove was not itself the Spirit, but actually carried the Spirit down from heaven. But even so, I do not see the Spirit as a distinct and seperate being as are the Father and Son.
__________________ Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
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