| Unorthodox Theology A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
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15th June 2006, 05:56 AM
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Reps: 40,554,967,364,822 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by CaerMac I'm not going to argue any further about whether the Holy Spirit is a person or the power of God. I have no intentions of trying to force my beliefs on anyone.
Excuse me, what about the scripture passages I just quoted you?
You claim to love God with all your heart soul and mind yet you apparently reject what God has to say on the subject about the personhood of his Spirit.
However, I feel that no one (no human) has the right to tell me that I am not Christian just because I believe the Holy Spirit is the Power of God and that God makes himself present everywhere through His Power.
I never said you weren't Christian. I will say that it is not enough (to be saved) to believe in a generic God or a generic Jesus.
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him**.
** old English meaning gullible
And :
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Yes, I am aware that no one - yet - has said to me directly "you are not a Christian." But in calling all non-Trinitarians "not Christian" it has still been said.
I am a follower of the teachings of Christ. And as ToxicReboMan pointed out, Jesus said:
"love the Lord thy God..."
But you are quoting scripture are you not? What about all the scriptures I quoted already? Do you think maybe you have been misled or deceived by sincere people who were themselves deceived?
It's easy, until you learn otherwise through Bible study, to misconstrue the sincerity of those who believe in untruth as somehow being a sign that what they believe is true. But it's what God has to say in his Word the Bible that must be the final authority or why bother at all?
Take God at his whole Word, and flee from any congregation that teaches you anything different than what the Bible teaches. |
15th June 2006, 06:05 AM
| | Regular Member
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| | Join Date: 24th December 2005
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Reps: 3,436 (power: 10) | | Originally Posted by johnd You cannot lie to an impersonal force.
An impersonal force cannot speak and it certainly cannot choose disciples and destinations for them to go to.
I do not think that that was being asserted johnd.
God's Holy Spirit is POWERFUL. Who is claiming that it (He) is an "impersonal force"? |
15th June 2006, 06:24 AM
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Reps: 40,554,967,364,822 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by philemon I do not think that that was being asserted johnd.
God's Holy Spirit is POWERFUL. Who is claiming that it (He) is an "impersonal force"?
That was the impression I was getting from CaerMac's last post 2nd paragraph. |
15th June 2006, 06:27 AM
|  | God is my salvation
43  
| | Join Date: 7th May 2006 Location: Minnesota
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Reps: 6,959 (power: 13) | | Originally Posted by johnd Excuse me, what about the scripture passages I just quoted you?
You claim to love God with all your heart soul and mind yet you apparently reject what God has to say on the subject about the personhood of his Spirit.
Do you think maybe you have been misled or deceived by sincere people who were themselves deceived?
Take God at his whole Word, and flee from any congregation that teaches you anything different than what the Bible teaches. I claimto love God? Judge not lest ye be judged.
Unless I am being decieved and misled by the Bible... I can read for myself.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord directing His people. After the Resurrection, the Spirit was the manifested power of God and the very presence of Christ Himself. It is certainly in this sense that the Spirit was "lied to." Acts 5:4 shows that lying to the Holy Spirit is equated with lying to God. Jesus is God, and He is the Spirit.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Now, as I said before, I am not going to argue this any longer.
__________________
Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
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15th June 2006, 07:23 AM
|  | Regular Member
 
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Reps: 13,169,046,525,985,428 (power: 13,169,046,525,991) | | Originally Posted by GeorgeE So what you are saying is you need to use non-scriptural words or a theory or as you put it ontologically (like evolution is a theory) to explain the trinity. It is simple God is one; not three person.
It is so simple God is one; He can manifest himself where ever and how ever God desires; be it a burning bush or the Spirit of Truth; or even the man Jesus who walked this earth in as God manifested in the Flesh. God is one; not three persons. But like most Christians; the traditions not the Bible is what you base your truth on.
No, I mean that we use language to talk about God and do the best we can and that one of the ways we do this is by agreeing on what we mean when we use certain words and that speaking of God in Three Persons doesn't do any violence at all to the notion that He remains one God.
Your continued assertion that it does is not only frustrating, it's indicative of a poor use of language.
Your irritation with "creeds" is duly noted.
For my part though, I will refrain from having to reinvent the wheel every time a Difficult Theological Locus arises.
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Last edited by Chemnitz; 15th June 2006 at 07:28 AM.
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15th June 2006, 08:49 AM
|  | Deut 6:4
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Reps: 70,027,930,524,366,400 (power: 70,027,930,524,374) | | Originally Posted by CaerMac I'm not going to argue any further about whether the Holy Spirit is a person or the power of God. I have no intentions of trying to force my beliefs on anyone.
However, I feel that no one (no human) has the right to tell me that I am not Christian just because I believe the Holy Spirit is the Power of God and that God makes himself present everywhere through His Power. Yes, I am aware that no one - yet - has said to me directly "you are not a Christian." But in calling all non-Trinitarians "not Christian" it has still been said.
I am a follower of the teachings of Christ. And as ToxicReboMan pointed out, Jesus said:
I do love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, and mind (and this is why I believe, as the Apostle Paul said, "all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." And I try not to judge others for their beliefs. I don't tell other people they are going to hell for whatever reason. God knows what is in their hearts. He knows what is in mine, as well.
Bravo. Well said.  No, really. 
Are we to consider non-trinitarian brothers and sisters as if they were our enemy? No, they are apart of the body of Christ. Those who are not against us are for us.
God Bless you in your Christian walk CaerMac.  |
15th June 2006, 11:05 AM
|  | the hunted becomes the hunter
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| | Join Date: 29th July 2005
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Reps: 2,594,881,619,335,947 (power: 2,594,881,619,348) | | Originally Posted by johnd Excuse me, what about the scripture passages I just quoted you?
You claim to love God with all your heart soul and mind yet you apparently reject what God has to say on the subject about the personhood of his Spirit.
I never said you weren't Christian. I will say that it is not enough (to be saved) to believe in a generic God or a generic Jesus.
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him**.
** old English meaning gullible
And :
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
"love the Lord thy God..."
But you are quoting scripture are you not? What about all the scriptures I quoted already? Do you think maybe you have been misled or deceived by sincere people who were themselves deceived?
It's easy, until you learn otherwise through Bible study, to misconstrue the sincerity of those who believe in untruth as somehow being a sign that what they believe is true. But it's what God has to say in his Word the Bible that must be the final authority or why bother at all?
Take God at his whole Word, and flee from any congregation that teaches you anything different than what the Bible teaches.
Isn't the gospel the good news that Jesus saves us from our sins? You seem to be saying that the gospel is the whole doctrine of the the orthodox church. Caermac isn't saying that Jesus doesn't save us from our sins so she is not preaching another gospel than the one we received as you intimate.
If one has to believe the orthodox doctrine of say the lutheran church then not to many people are saved because I would venture to guess that many christians are unaware of many orthodox doctrinal beliefs of their churhes. Also it would mean one isn't truely saved until one is indoctrinated in orthodox doctrines. Which would negate such scriputres as "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." or 'believe in the Lord Jesus and be baptized and ye shall be saved." etc.
__________________
God is a spirit (jn 4:24)........... God is not a man...(Nu 23:19) A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me (Jesus) have (Lu 24:39).....the man Christ Jesus 1 ti 2:5
Last edited by 2ducklow; 15th June 2006 at 11:12 AM.
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15th June 2006, 11:15 AM
|  | Traveling the Via Media
58  
| | Join Date: 17th August 2005 Location: Nashville, Tennessee
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Reps: 179,167,937,825,273,472 (power: 179,167,937,825,284) | | Originally Posted by GeorgeE First of all you have lost me totally.
We're talking about the Triune nature of God I place my faith not in this religious creeds that is nothing more then wood hay and stubble ready for God's fire.
Which is to say that you make up your own creed as you go. But the Church as a whole has creeds that state what we as Christians believe to be the teaching of Scripture. It's just a matter of whether you prefer the creeds confessed by Christians down through the ages, or the creed you make up your own self. Your call. God’s Word is the Bible inspired by the Spirit of truth, not religious bias made by men.
Or the "interpretations" of the just-me-and-my-Bible folks. I do not believe in organized religion
Every man for himself, eh? Did you know the word Church comes from the Greek word ekklesia
Strangely enough I do. Christianity became corrupt when it became a system and went into a thousand year dark age.
Hooooooookey...
__________________
"It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged." G. K. Chesterton |
15th June 2006, 11:44 AM
|  | noob
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| | Join Date: 7th February 2006
Posts: 1,294
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Reps: 1,396 (power: 9) | | God will only pardon you of divine punishment ("justification") if you have Christian faith. Part of Christian faith is a believe in the Nicene Creed statement of the Trinity.
If a person does not believe in the Trinity, God will requite destruction upon a person as a penalty for their violation of his law. God shall not forgive them, but will ruin them, as the Holy Scriptures teach:
God shall treat a non-Trinitarian "Christian" as he shall treat a non-believer.
There is no such thing as a Christian church or a denomination which denies the dogma of the Holy Trinity.
Belief in the Deity of Christ isn't enough to be considered a Christian on CF or in terms of orthodoxy. There's a great deal more that one must adhere to.
The Trinity is fundamental to Christian theology. Deny the Trinity and you are a heretic.
Hello,
Nicene Christianity was not defined before 325. The language (and hence understanding) of the notion of the Trinity grew in steps. Were there no Christians before 325 AD?
The fundamental assumption that Jesus is of "one substance" with the Father is eisegesis. This conclusion was not arrived at because of scripture, but because the need was felt to harmonize early Christian doctrine of the divinity of Christ with the language and understanding of the Greek philosophers. It is man's philosophy that over several centuries defined the notion of Trinity. Most admit that it was not a process of inspiration or revelation that produced the doctrine of the Trinity. Why should the Athanasian creed or any other man made creed be considered infallible?
Athanasian understanding was far from orthodox at the time. That it is orthodox today has less to to with church consensus and more to do with the fact that Nicene understanding of the Athanasian persuasion was given the support of the state and the sword by Roman Emperor Theodosius in 381 AD, while all other persuasions were persecuted. today's orthodoxy has the weight and strength of tradition, but it is a tradition whose strongest roots begin not with the apostles of Jesus, but with the influence of a couple of roman emperors. Understanding what the Bible really says about the Godhead may not be popular, but it has the advantages of being rooted in the words of the Apostles and of avoiding the Greek influence that defined the Trinity.
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15th June 2006, 11:46 AM
| | Contributor
| | Join Date: 30th November 2003 Location: God bless.
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Reps: 40,554,967,364,822 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by CaerMac I claimto love God? Judge not lest ye be judged.
For pity sake, you really don't read the Bible do you?
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
The gist of the passage is to do exactly what I am doing trying to help you.
Unless I am being decieved and misled by the Bible... I can read for myself.
That is precisely what I want you to do. Forget anyone else's interpretations / arguments / impressions / hopes or dreams and read the Bible read it like it will be taken from you any minute... and for the love of Mike, take it for what's there not what you or anyone else wants to be there or not be there. If you do this, you will learn from God.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord directing His people.
This is an interpolation of:
Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
There is no indication that the Holy Spirit was some sort of spiritual communication device as you imply.
After the Resurrection, the Spirit was the manifested power of God and the very presence of Christ Himself. It is certainly in this sense that the Spirit was "lied to." Acts 5:4 shows that lying to the Holy Spirit is equated with lying to God. Jesus is God, and He is the Spirit.
It doesn't say equated. It says they lied to the Holy Spirit and therefore they lied to God.
You are trying to impose extrabiblical doctrine upon the text.
Now, as I said before, I am not going to argue this any longer.
Then you simply are not willing to face the truth about what you believe. | | |
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