Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
Read the Athanasian Creed, one of the ancient confessions of the Church. It'll clear up what Christians believe about the Triune God quite nicely.
Arghhhhh!
OK, every now and then I have to post the Athanasian Creed for the benefit of those who've never read it. Looks like the time has come again:
Athanasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved is must think thus of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
First of all you have lost me totally. I place my faith not in this religious creeds that is nothing more then wood hay and stubble ready for God's fire.
God’s Word is the Bible inspired by the Spirit of truth, not religious bias made by men. Show it to me in the Bible and then you at least have a foundation. I do not believe in organized religion; I do believe God is calling men out of religion. Did you know the word Church comes from the Greek word ekklesia which means the out called; Christianity became corrupt when it became a system and went into a thousand year dark age.
The difficulty with understanding this arises in the miosconceived notion that there is one God per person in the Godhead. Echad (one) in Deuteronomy 6:4 is a compound unity used to describe the family unit in:
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be [ONE] [echad] flesh.
God is not a person He is a spirit; where do you get the person part that fragments God in different sections.
From the very scriptures I have already shown you. Please read them again and again until you realize that they refer to the various persons in the unity of the Godhead. Each has personality, understanding, individuality which I already proved with scripture shows their distinction one from another. Each has feeling, each has thought, all the traits of personhood.
Your problem, George, is that you bought into an argument that doesn't square with scripture. And if you think it through, the angels have personhood and are spirits, so why would God not have personhood? I mean other than the teaching of those who want to impose their false beliefs on scripture that apparently made you think their argument was valid if not logical...
I know Jesus was a person when He walked the earth; is He the Father or the son?
Jesus is the Son of the Father.
Isaiah 9:6 (King James Version)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Actually the Hebrew reads "Father of eternity"... and to be the father of something is to be the creator of it or the first one to do something. Refer to:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Here's a tid bit I'll bet you didn't know.
The Heavenly Father did not create creation. God the Word (John 1:1) who became flesh (John 1:14) did.
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
The Father did create the body of Jesus:
Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
The doctrine of the Trinity was not something man set out to impose upon the Bible. It was gleaned from the Bible when the full revelation was canonized... comparing scripture with scripture. The conclusion being that God is a compound unity of three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Again, reread the Bible texts I quoted in this thread.
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With regards to the Holy Spirit being personified, I would like to quote something from a site called The Trumpet. The Trumpet belongs to a church called the Philadelphia Church of God, which is listed among the Christian Churches in CF's Wiki ( http://www.christianforums.com/t2773...-churches.html ). Curiously, this church is not listed among the non-Trinitarian churches on that page, even though they are non-trinitarian. Anyways... to quote the Trumpet on the Holy Spirit:
Here is what the archangel Gabriel said to Mary in Luke 1:30-31: “And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.” But Mary asked, “How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” (verse 34). Notice this amazing and very clear answer to Mary: “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy [Spirit] shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (verse 35). The Holy Spirit, the very power of the living God, would come upon Mary, meaning Jesus Christ was begotten of the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus was begotten of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit was a third distinct being in the Godhead, that would make the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ’s Father! Yet, even worldly churches know that is not true. Christ prayed to God His Father. “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father …” (Matthew 26:39).
I won't list a link for this article because I don't want anyone to think I am trying to proselytize.
__________________ Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
Which Jesus Christ? The "gentle teacher" of the materialists? The bodhisatva of the Buddhists? The angel of the Jehovah's Witnesses? The "god" of the Mormons? The prophet of the Muslims? Will the real Jesus Christ please stand up?
Christians however, need ask no such question. We believe that our Lord is God the Son, wholly God and wholly man, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit is God, yet not three God's but One God. So say all the creeds of the Christian Church. That is what Christians believe. Those who don't believe what Christians believe ought, out of courtesy if nothing else, to forbear from calling themselves Christians.
Are you sure you checked carefully enough?
I'm talking about the Jesus that said : 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (KJV Mt 22)
With regards to the Holy Spirit being personified, I would like to quote something from a site called The Trumpet.
Here is what the archangel Gabriel said to Mary in Luke 1:30-31: “And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.” But Mary asked, “How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” (verse 34). Notice this amazing and very clear answer to Mary: “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy [Spirit] shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (verse 35). The Holy Spirit, the very power of the living God, would come upon Mary, meaning Jesus Christ was begotten of the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus was begotten of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit was a third distinct being in the Godhead, that would make the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ’s Father! Yet, even worldly churches know that is not true. Christ prayed to God His Father. “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father …” (Matthew 26:39).
Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
You will note that all three persons of the Godhead are present:
1. The Holy Ghost who came upon Mary
2. The Highest** whose power overshadowed her
3. The Holy One*** (hagios in Greek) the Son of God in her womb
** John 10:29 (Note: Luke 1:32 above says he will be called the Son of the Highest... the Father not the Holy Ghost)
*** Isaiah 43:3
Need more proof? The Holy Ghost did not impregnate Mary, he came upon her as he did one of the prophets:
Strong's # 1904 eperchomai
AV - come 6, come upon 2, come on 1, come thither 1; 10
1) to come to arrive
1a) of time, come on, be at hand, be future
2) to come upon, overtake, one
2a) of sleep
2b) of disease
2c) of calamities 2d) of the Holy Spirit, descending and operating in one
2e) of an enemy attacking one
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The Latter-Day Saints don't actually have the same commandments fom God that "we" do. The Book of Mormon contains a whole set of commandments from God that they recognize as Scripture from God.
I doubt the Book of Mormon would have any instructions contrary to these commandments. While they have different theology and doctrinal teachings, they have the same commandments as us. (The commandments that actually matter the most.) The commandments to love God with all thy heart and to love thy neighbor as thy self. All other commandments are pointing toward these 2 commandments.
Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
You will note that all three persons of the Godhead are present:
1. The Holy Ghost who came upon Mary
2. The Highest** whose power overshadowed her
3. The Holy One*** (hagios in Greek) the Son of God in her womb
** John 10:29 (Note: Luke 1:32 above says he will be called the Son of the Highest... the Father not the Holy Ghost)
*** Isaiah 43:3
Need more proof? The Holy Ghost did not impregnate Mary, he came upon her as he did one of the prophets:
Strong's # 1904 eperchomai
AV - come 6, come upon 2, come on 1, come thither 1; 10
1) to come to arrive
1a) of time, come on, be at hand, be future
2) to come upon, overtake, one
2a) of sleep
2b) of disease
2c) of calamities 2d) of the Holy Spirit, descending and operating in one
2e) of an enemy attacking one
None of it proves to me that the Holy Spirit is a person. The Holy Spirit is the power of God.
__________________ Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
None of it proves to me that the Holy Spirit is a person. The Holy Spirit is the power of God.
Hi
Please know that I am not trying to prove anything to you.
Here is what Jesus Christ said about the Holy Spirit:
John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.
JOhn 14:17 - that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot recieve, because it does not behold Him, or know Him, but you know Him because He abides in you, and will be in you.
And then in John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your rememberance all that I said to you.
---------------------------------------------
Its best to read those scriptures in context of the passages of John because Jesus was speaking with the disciples about having to go away - but that the Father would send the Helper - The Holy Spirit, in Jesus name.
None of it proves to me that the Holy Spirit is a person. The Holy Spirit is the power of God.
Oh, is that what's troubling you, pal?
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
You cannot lie to an impersonal force.
An impersonal force cannot speak and it certainly cannot choose disciples and destinations for them to go to.
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I'm not going to argue any further about whether the Holy Spirit is a person or the power of God. I have no intentions of trying to force my beliefs on anyone.
However, I feel that no one (no human) has the right to tell me that I am not Christian just because I believe the Holy Spirit is the Power of God and that God makes himself present everywhere through His Power. Yes, I am aware that no one - yet - has said to me directly "you are not a Christian." But in calling all non-Trinitarians "not Christian" it has still been said.
I am a follower of the teachings of Christ. And as ToxicReboMan pointed out, Jesus said:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I do love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, and mind (and this is why I believe, as the Apostle Paul said, "all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." And I try not to judge others for their beliefs. I don't tell other people they are going to hell for whatever reason. God knows what is in their hearts. He knows what is in mine, as well.
__________________ Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
to quote the Trumpet on the Holy Spirit:
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