Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
Is belief in the Trinity a requirement for salvation/heaven? I don't think it is, because what is important is that you believe in Jesus Christ AND remain in His word. That is, you must also obey His commandments. Then you will abide in His love. Last time I checked, the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses have the same commandments from Jesus as we do.
The Latter-Day Saints don't actually have the same commandments fom God that "we" do. The Book of Mormon contains a whole set of commandments from God that they recognize as Scripture from God.
The Bible teaches the triune nature of God by expressing its characteristics.
There is one God:
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Yet there is a plurality of persons in the Godhead:
Psalm 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
The plural word elohiym in Hebrew is used some 2700 times in the Old Testament to refer to the one true God.
From the Bible we learn that the Father is God:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
The Son is God:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Holy Spirit is God:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. This is determined by several scripture passages, some of which I'll list here.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
One is not with themself.
The Father and the Spirit sent the Son:
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
The Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
The Father sent the Son:
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
One does not send one's self.
Is the trinity one God; or three God’s? God is not a person He is a spirit; where do you get the person part that fragments God in different sections. I know Jesus was a person when He walked the earth; is He the Father or the son?
Isaiah 9:6 (King James Version)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
"Person" does not mean "human", or even "creature" or even "individual substance or essence"..
It means "having personality" and "being capable of personal interaction" and so on...
A Spirit can be a person, in the case of God He is one.
No one is saying that Jesus and the Father are the same Person such that they cannot relate to one another personally.
It is difficult, in the way we talk about things today to understand how a person can be distinct from what the person is ontologically.
The ancients did not have this difficulty, and we have inherited their language on this point. We do need to be careful when we use it to know what they meant (and therefore what we must necessarily mean) when we do so.
God is not three gods. He is Three Persons, One God.
Three divine Who's, one divine What, to radically (and dangerously) oversimplify it. I say "dangerously" because such a formulation does nothing to explain how God, though Three Persons is not just One Essence in three manifestations (modalism).
"Who" is not synonymous with "what", though...and that would be the main point I'd like you to digest.
God is Three destinct Persons Whom are all equally and eternally of the same One Substance (God).
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what is important is that you believe in Jesus Christ
Which Jesus Christ? The "gentle teacher" of the materialists? The bodhisatva of the Buddhists? The angel of the Jehovah's Witnesses? The "god" of the Mormons? The prophet of the Muslims? Will the real Jesus Christ please stand up?
Christians however, need ask no such question. We believe that our Lord is God the Son, wholly God and wholly man, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit is God, yet not three God's but One God. So say all the creeds of the Christian Church. That is what Christians believe. Those who don't believe what Christians believe ought, out of courtesy if nothing else, to forbear from calling themselves Christians.
Last time I checked, the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses have the same commandments from Jesus as we do.
Are you sure you checked carefully enough?
__________________ "when families shall be disrupted at the caprice of either party, and the children scattered as foundlings from their hearthstone,- it requires no wisdom to see that a race of sons will be reared nearer akin to devils than to men. In the hands of such a bastard progeny, without discipline, without homes, without a God, the last remains of social order will speedily perish, and society will be overwhelmed in savage anarchy." R L Dabney
This thread has found a new home in unorthodox theology. Since the topic is unorthodox in nature, it has been moved out of General Theology.
MOD HAT OFF
__________________ “This is the man I want myself to be but who cannot exist, because God does not know anything about him. And to be unknown to God is altogether too much privacy. My false and private self is the one who wants to exist outside the reach of God’s will and God’s love –outside of reality and outside of life. And such a self cannot help but be an illusion." -- Thomas Merton
Read the Athanasian Creed, one of the ancient confessions of the Church. It'll clear up what Christians believe about the Triune God quite nicely.
God is not a person He is a spirit; where do you get the person part that fragments God in different sections.
Arghhhhh!
OK, every now and then I have to post the Athanasian Creed for the benefit of those who've never read it. Looks like the time has come again:
Athanasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved is must think thus of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
__________________ "when families shall be disrupted at the caprice of either party, and the children scattered as foundlings from their hearthstone,- it requires no wisdom to see that a race of sons will be reared nearer akin to devils than to men. In the hands of such a bastard progeny, without discipline, without homes, without a God, the last remains of social order will speedily perish, and society will be overwhelmed in savage anarchy." R L Dabney
No, not Socinianism. Socinianism = Unitarian. Socinians do not believe in the divinity of Christ. They believe Christ was merely a man.
As for myself, I believe in ONE God, which exists as TWO beings: the Father and the Word (Son). I believe that the Holy Spirit is the power and the presence of God. This is where I disagree with the Trinity. I do not accept the personification of the Holy Spirit. Binitarian would be the best description of my beliefs regarding the nature of God.
So, I guess this makes me a heretic. I guess this means I am not a Christian.
*Sigh*
__________________ Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
No, not Socinianism. Socinianism = Unitarian. Socinians do not believe in the divinity of Christ. They believe Christ was merely a man.
As for myself, I believe in ONE God, which exists as TWO beings: the Father and the Word (Son). I believe that the Holy Spirit is the power and the presence of God. This is where I disagree with the Trinity. I do not accept the personification of the Holy Spirit. Binitarian would be the best description of my beliefs regarding the nature of God.
So, I guess this makes me a heretic. I guess this means I am not a Christian.
*Sigh*
Let God judge and not religion who is a Christian. Yes you are a believer and the deeper you seek God the less religion will agree or even understand. Where in the Bible does it say religion will set you free; it is the truth that will set you free.
"Person" does not mean "human", or even "creature" or even "individual substance or essence"..
It means "having personality" and "being capable of personal interaction" and so on...
A Spirit can be a person, in the case of God He is one.
No one is saying that Jesus and the Father are the same Person such that they cannot relate to one another personally.
It is difficult, in the way we talk about things today to understand how a person can be distinct from what the person is ontologically.
The ancients did not have this difficulty, and we have inherited their language on this point. We do need to be careful when we use it to know what they meant (and therefore what we must necessarily mean) when we do so.
God is not three gods. He is Three Persons, One God.
Three divine Who's, one divine What, to radically (and dangerously) oversimplify it. I say "dangerously" because such a formulation does nothing to explain how God, though Three Persons is not just One Essence in three manifestations (modalism).
"Who" is not synonymous with "what", though...and that would be the main point I'd like you to digest.
So what you are saying is you need to use non-scriptural words or a theory or as you put it ontologically (like evolution is a theory) to explain the trinity. It is simple God is one; not three person.
It is so simple God is one; He can manifest himself where ever and how ever God desires; be it a burning bush or the Spirit of Truth; or even the man Jesus who walked this earth in as God manifested in the Flesh. God is one; not three persons. But like most Christians; the traditions not the Bible is what you base your truth on.
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