Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
A cult is a destructive, doomsday religious group. Mormons aren't like that. They are usually upstanding citizens of whatever country they live in who simply call themselves Christian when they shouldn't.
Calling non-Christians "cultists" is also a great way to drive them away from Christ.
__________________ President of the WACCAV To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. For You are the Lord Most High, of great compassion, long-suffering, and very merciful, and You relent at human suffering. O Lord, according to Your great goodness You have promised repentance and forgiveness to those who have sinned against You, and in the multitude of Your mercies You have appointed repentance for sinners so that they may be saved.
-Prayer of Manasseh verse 7 (NRSV) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
... The word “person” or Persons” is another word that was added by theologians and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible when it comes to this so called “Godhead”.
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Where shall we start to prove you wrong? The one God revealed Himself as a plurality (a distinction of persons) in the Godhead:Gen 1:26 "God said, 'Let us make man in ourimage, in our likeness" That God could not have been conversing with angels or other unidentified beings is clearly revealed in v27. which refers to the special creation of man "in the image of God". The context indicates a divine interpersonal communication requiring a unity of Persons in the Godhead.
The word “person” or Persons” is another word that was added by theologians and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible when it comes to this so called “Godhead”
If God is not a person, what is He? A force? An emblem?
If I was an Israelite or a Jew I would not be a Trinitarian I would be a monotheist
and God does not change. I do believe our understanding of him should always be changing as he opens our eyes to the new wine of the spirit and not the old wine of tradition.
Is belief in the Trinity a requirement for salvation/heaven? I don't think it is, because what is important is that you believe in Jesus Christ AND remain in His word. That is, you must also obey His commandments. Then you will abide in His love. Last time I checked, the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses have the same commandments from Jesus as we do.
George E is right to quote DT 6:4 in this way. The Hebrews belived in one God and God is one. The 'us' and 'we' throughout the OT can only be understood from the Hebrew perspective as the 'Royal we', eg: Queen Victoria famously said "we are not amused" when speaking for herself.
However, the truth in Christianity is the belief in:
One God
3 Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each God
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each distinct.
There are so many heretical views kicking about, that one has to be careful to avoid tri-theism (Like the Mormons believe in 3 Gods), Modalism where God jumps in one 'mode' to the next, and Arianism where Jesus is part of the Created order based on a misinterpretation of Collosians 1:15..
If you don't see Jesus as God, then when we worship him, we are guilty of 'creature worship' and if we don't regard the Holy Spirit as God, we are denying the person of the Holy Spirit which is dangerous territory.
__________________ Shalom
Mike King
"Each of us, a cell of awareness, imperfect and incomplete. Genetic blends with uncertain ends on a fortune hunt thats far too fleet.."
Where shall we start to prove you wrong? The one God revealed Himself as a plurality (a distinction of persons) in the Godhead:Gen 1:26 "God said, 'Let us make man in ourimage, in our likeness" That God could not have been conversing with angels or other unidentified beings is clearly revealed in v27. which refers to the special creation of man "in the image of God". The context indicates a divine interpersonal communication requiring a unity of Persons in the Godhead.
The name for this plurality in Gen 1:26-27 is ELOHIM (GOD) which was used quite often in the Bible. Here are a few examples.
This brings us immediately to Psalm 82:6-7, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. ""Ye are gods (elohim).." Elohim is a plural word for gods, as well as referring to Him as the Head of this God-family.God is "the Father of spirits . . . "
[Hebrews 12:9], and because they are out of Himself, they are also rightly called gods, or, elohim. But because, in His mystery-purpose, He has caused them to lack, to be lowered from this realm, man is no longer able to bear the yoke of divinity, nor live out the fullness of this righteous state, and so we "die like men", literally, like Adam, who was the one by whom "sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
[Romans 5:12]. Yet even when He turned man to this bruising, He did so with the inherent command, "return, ye children of men," [Psalm 90:3] knowing full well that He had purposed a FULL RETURN once this mystery had been consummated.
Briefly, we note a few other Old Testament references using the word "elohim" in its plural sense for "gods."
Zechariah 12:8, "And he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David as elohim, as the angel of the Lord before them. " What an in working of the power and grace of God, so that the weak ones become strong, but they who have already been developed and matured and made strong will be as ELOHIM - as gods.
Psalm 138:1, "I will praise Thee with my whole heart; before the gods (elohim) will I sing praise unto Thee."
Psalm 136:2, "O give thanks unto the God of gods." HE is above all, that "in all He might have pre-eminence." [Colossians 1:18]. "Yet He, Jesus Christ, is the Firstborn among many brethren." [Romans 8 : 29]. "For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren." [Hebrews 2:11]. The brethren are to be "AS HE IS so are we in this world." [1 John 4:17]. Hence the verses multiply in convincing evidence that He is bringing forth after His own kind - His elohlm, His gods. The mystery of God, while it is all encompassing of His purpose, can also be identified as bringing forth gods, in His image, after His likeness, partakers of His divine nature.
The Jews took up stones to stone Him, and Jesus asked them, "Many good works have I shewed you from My Father; for which of those works do ye stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy and because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If He called them gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God."
[John 10:32-36].
There are some significant points which Jesus brings out, in His reference to the declaration of the Psalmist, "ye are gods . . . " and we especially note the statement "He call them gods, unto whom the word of God came." Certainly! Because when His Word comes to us, and we receive it, it is HIS SEED for the producing of His new creation species, thus we are "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, BY THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever." [1 Peter 1:23]. The life is in the seed, and it is HIS LIFE, to bear after His kind, so obviously He calls them gods
the belief that rejects the trinity, but still recognizes the deity of Jesus Christ.
Can this be considered heretical?
Well, it certainly is not biblical.
The Bible teaches the triune nature of God by expressing its characteristics.
There is one God:
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Yet there is a plurality of persons in the Godhead:
Psalm 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
The plural word elohiym in Hebrew is used some 2700 times in the Old Testament to refer to the one true God.
From the Bible we learn that the Father is God:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
The Son is God:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Holy Spirit is God:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. This is determined by several scripture passages, some of which I'll list here.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
One is not with themself.
The Father and the Spirit sent the Son:
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
The Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit:
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
The Father sent the Son:
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
One does not send one's self.
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