Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
Psalm 82:1; A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
In some cases, the same word can only be used in the plural, not the plural intensive/singular. You can not 'judge among the God'. It is the same hebrew word used for both, but they have slightly different meanings.
Other than that, I agree with everything you have said above.
In that case, and if I am right about God being a family, the word gods could be translated to say "he judgeth among the family of god."
Also, with regards to this concept, I noticed, or rather actually paid attention to, something in Ephesians:
Ephesians 3:14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, (15) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
I know that different translations and versions of this may word that a little differently, some would have v15 say:
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named
or
Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named.
But the Father of Jesus is "the God", or God the Father, and if the whole family (a singular family made up of members [the Greek shows it as singular], as opposed to plural families) is named for Him, then that family (whose members are in heaven and earth) is named God. Although this verse could also be in regards to the naming of God's Church... Anyways, I found this all very interesting.
__________________ Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
Actually, the whole entire chapter of Ephesians 3 is absolutely wonderful, and I am going to quote it entirely, underlining, bolding, and italicising another point I want to make regarding the Holy Spirit:
Ephesians 3:1-21 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, (2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. (8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; (9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, (11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: (12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. (13) Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. (14) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, (15) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, (16) That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; (17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, (18) May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; (19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. (20) Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, (21) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
The whole chapter deserves reading, but that which I have emphasized is what I believe is the definition of the Holy Spirit (I have already stated in this thread that I don't believe it is a person, and that is why my beliefs are binitarian and not trinitarian). The Holy Spirit is the effectual working of God's power.
__________________ Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
In that case, and if I am right about God being a family, the word gods could be translated to say "he judgeth among the family of god."
Also, with regards to this concept, I noticed, or rather actually paid attention to, something in Ephesians:
I know that different translations and versions of this may word that a little differently, some would have v15 say:
from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named
or
Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named.
But the Father of Jesus is "the God", or God the Father, and if the whole family (a singular family made up of members [the Greek shows it as singular], as opposed to plural families) is named for Him, then that family (whose members are in heaven and earth) is named God. Although this verse could also be in regards to the naming of God's Church... Anyways, I found this all very interesting.
That, I can probably agree with.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods": 2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
I think the reference is to judges, people in power to judge, like the judges in the bible maybe.
Right, so the judges are gods, judged by God? I am fine with that.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
In the meantime, reflect what the Bible does say: That Jesus was created by God; That Jesus received all power and authority from God; and that Jesus is eternaly subordinate to God. The early Christians believed that Jesus and The Father were the same kind of being with Christ subordinate to the Father, not the same being. Only after Augustine was the notion of subordinationism wiped out.
I disagree with you here, jeffC. I believe the Bible states that Jesus is God.
I would have represented my position more clearly if I had specified that Jesus was created by God The Father. I believe that Jesus is fully God The Son, and is the Person YHWY.
Originally Posted by jpr7
Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:14-15 both speak of Christ being before creation; however, you don't find Christ spoken of as created. This is parallel to John 1:1-2.
It may help to understand my viewpoint to keep in mind that I don't believe in creatio ex nihilo. I understand the word “create” in Gen 1:1 to carry its other connotation of “organize” or “shape.”
John 1:1-2 are parallel to Gen 1:1 - “the beginning” is when the heavens and the earth were formed. What do we know of the state of affairs before the heavens and earth were formed? Very little, but we do know that before this Jesus was already with God the Father. At some point before the creation of the heavens and earth, Jesus became the “firstborn” (Col 1:15). Why call Jesus “first” if there would be no second? Jesus was first formed by The Father, and then the rest of creation followed. This is the sense in which the word “firstborn” is elsewhere in the scriptures: Jesus is first, and then we follow: Jesus was the first to be born in the image of God, we follow (Col 1:15, Rom 8:29); Christ was the first to rise from the dead, we follow (Col 1:18, rev 1:5);
My thought was that these is little disagreement over whether or not Jesus was brought forth by the Father, and more disagreement over whether Jesus is of numerical identity of essence with the Father. It seems the disagreement is less about whether or not Jesus came forth, and more about the meaning or origin of homoousis as it is used to describe Jesus in the Nicene Creed.
Originally Posted by fpr7
In Acts 2:36, Peter was addressing devout monotheistic Jews. To them, no human being is on the level of God. Peter is saying that Jesus is on the same level as God. This would be shocking to a first century Jew since for a human being to be Lord means that that human being must be in some way God.
I don't think Peter would be intimidated into teaching falsity. Not only in Acts 2:36, but from the other passages I gave earlier it is apparent that Jesus received his power and authority from God the Father, and not only in those things pertaining to Jesus' manhood. This point was also primary doctrine among the early Christian Fathers until after the Nicene Creed. Subordinationism was only fully stamped out after Augustine, the reason being that subordinationism is inconsistent with the notion of “one substance.”
JeffC has stated that Christ is eternally subordinate to Heavenly Father. However, I myself am not sure this is true. I believe He was subordinate up until He was made eternally perfect.
I believe he always knew that Heavenly Father would want His Son to be equal to Him and also us too:
Let me further clarify what I mean by subordinate. I don't mean that Jesus has not received all things from the Father or that He is not equal in power, knowledge, wisdom, or any other trait that God can give Him. However, The Father is still the Father, and Jesus is still the Son, and the Father is still the One God over all. Jesus is still on the right hand of God. Likewise, we can be made perfect in Jesus Christ and receive equally all things with Him. But we will never be anywhere but at the right hand of both the Father and the Son. I have been taught that there never will be a time when The Father is not our God, or when Jesus is not our Lord. When a son is grown, he still must honor his father. Of course, disagree if you want to – I certainly could be wrong. But I wanted to clarify that I see authority and glory as what remains subordinate, while equality is awarded in all else.
D&C 76:92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever; 93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever. 94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace; 95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
This is evident in the creation of Eve in the Garden of Eden. She was not created like Adam was, she was brought forth from the same substance as Adam, she was created from his rib, and yet was completely human like Adam was. I understand that God brought forth a Son in that same manner, who was completely God, just like Eve was human because of His origin. This does not however, make Jesus the Father, the One True God of the Bible (1 Corin 8:6, Eph4:6), but makes Him the Son of God, completely having all the attributes of God.
This is not far from my position, however I do consider Jesus to be Jehovah. In the Adam/Eve analogy, there are after all two persons of separate essence when all is said and done, yet they both share the same kind of essence. This reminds me of Justin Martyrs analogy of Christ's generation as by fire, where the glory of the first fire is not reduced just because of the existence of another fire. Here as well there are in the end two fires, and Justin has no problem specifying that YHWY, “who is called God”: is separate from the other God, the Father “above whom there is no other God” (Tyrpho, LVI).
Originally Posted by Harlin
This makes the most sense to me and I can fit all scripture into this understanding, there is no contradictions. That is why I believe that when Jesus was stating that "the Father is greater than I", that the translation "elder" fits better with the rest of scripture, as we know that Jesus IS equal to the Father, He has been exalted to that position.
I like this explanation. In your view, what implication does the Father being “elder” have on whether Jesus is co-eternal or eternally co-equal with the Father?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
How can you all totally disregard this part of the bible that without any doubt places the Son of God(Jesus)with God in the very beginning and not only with God but the Word WAS God........obviously is God and always will be God whether in Heaven, on earth or anywhere?
If you do not believe this then you do not believe the bible.
In the beginning refers to the creation of heaven and earth (Gen 1:1), and marks an instant from which time as we know it might be reckoned. What happened before that? I believe that Jesus was both with God AND God at the time of the creation. It is the assumption that there is only one being who is properly called God that causes our disagreement.
Don't forget this common description of the Trinity: He who is the Father is not the Son, He who is the Son is not the Father; The primary concern then is the issue of the "one substance" of the Godhead.
Originally Posted by heleadsme
The Father is greater than I was said by Jesus fully man and of course the Father is greater than the fully man Son.
Is it your position that Jesus was not also fully God during mortality? What about after His resurrection? What about during judgment? The truth is that the Father is always greater than the son, and substantively separate from the Son from beginning to end in the Bible – at the same time, Jesus is fully divine. “one substance” is nowhere to be found.
Before earth: The Father formed Jesus, not the other way around. The Father is greater.
During earth: Jesus expressly declares that the Father is greater.
After resurrection: Jesus expressly declares that the Father is greater.
After earth: The father is still greater, forever -- “24 Then cometh the end, when [Jesus] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when [Jesus] shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For [Jesus] must reign, until he hath put all enemies under his feet. 27 For [Jesus] hath put all things under his feet. But when he [Jesus] saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he [The Father] is excepted, which did put all things under him [Jesus]. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him [Jesus], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [The Father] that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
If you consider Jesus to be God, and The Father to be God, it must be admitted that there are two beings properly called God, i.e. There are at least two Gods. In fact, there are three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, united in power, purpose, and will. Together they form one Godhead.
Let me further clarify what I mean by subordinate. I don't mean that Jesus has not received all things from the Father or that He is not equal in power, knowledge, wisdom, or any other trait that God can give Him. However, The Father is still the Father, and Jesus is still the Son, and the Father is still the One God over all. Jesus is still on the right hand of God. Likewise, we can be made perfect in Jesus Christ and receive equally all things with Him. But we will never be anywhere but at the right hand of both the Father and the Son. I have been taught that there never will be a time when The Father is not our God, or when Jesus is not our Lord. When a son is grown, he still must honor his father. Of course, disagree if you want to – I certainly could be wrong. But I wanted to clarify that I see authority and glory as what remains subordinate, while equality is awarded in all else.
D&C 76:92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever; 93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever. 94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace; 95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
I will not disagree with that. "Subordinate", to me was a bit of a harsh word. Maybe it is just how I have heard it used, that makes me think it must be wrong. What you say here though, is more along the lines of what the Bible teaches, than what I proposed even. So, I would say that I am now inclined to your viewpoint, more than my own from earlier.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
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