Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
My understanding of the Son being brought forth from the Father comes from several texts. I too believe Jesus is the creator and is all God. But, I do believe that Jesus had His origin in the Father, these are the scriptures that convince me of this.
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he; before me THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, neither shall there be after me. I even I am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour" Isaiah 43:10-11
Paul then says that Jesus was in the "form of God" in Philippians 2:6
In Proverbs 8:22-26 it talks about the wisdom of God being "brought forth" and "as one brought up with him". We then read in 1 Corin 1:24 that Jesus IS the wisdom of God. I believe this shows that Jesus was brought forth from the Father.
We are told in Romans 1: 19-20 that:
"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them. 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are CLEARLY SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, even his eternal power and GODHEAD; so that they are without excuse"
This tells me that by creation we can understand the Godhead. Many say that the trinity can be proven by water, light, eggs, apples and many other analogies, however, I believe that since we are made in God's image and not all those other things we should reveal the Godhead.
This is evident in the creation of Eve in the Garden of Eden. She was not created like Adam was, she was brought forth from the same substance as Adam, she was created from his rib, and yet was completely human like Adam was. I understand that God brought forth a Son in that same manner, who was completely God, just like Eve was human because of His origin. This does not however, make Jesus the Father, the One True God of the Bible (1 Corin 8:6, Eph4:6), but makes Him the Son of God, completely having all the attributes of God.
This makes the most sense to me and I can fit all scripture into this understanding, there is no contradictions. That is why I believe that when Jesus was stating that "the Father is greater than I", that the translation "elder" fits better with the rest of scripture, as we know that Jesus IS equal to the Father, He has been exalted to that position.
God Bless,
Harlin
hello again harlin.
i basically agree with your post here, for come to think of it, the father and son description of the bible has no meaning at all if it were'n't so.
if i recall it right, our contention was as to the timing of the bringin forth of the son/word. you believed that the son was brougth forth within the timeframe while i posit that he was with the father before there was ever a thing we call time. that's why we say he was eternal, it only means that like the father he was also unaffected by the passage of time. is this correct?
Prov 8:22-23
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
__________________ And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.
And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?Gen 3:10-11
Last edited by hybrid; 22nd June 2006 at 09:42 PM.
__________________ Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
Last edited by CaerMac; 24th June 2006 at 12:52 PM.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
How can you all totally disregard this part of the bible that without any doubt places the Son of God(Jesus)with God in the very beginning and not only with God but the Word WAS God........obviously is God and always will be God whether in Heaven, on earth or anywhere?
If you do not believe this then you do not believe the bible.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
How can you all totally disregard this part of the bible that without any doubt places the Son of God(Jesus)with God in the very beginning and not only with God but the Word WAS God........obviously is God and always will be God whether in Heaven, on earth or anywhere?
If you do not believe this then you do not believe the bible.
hello heleadsme,
am i included in the "you all who totally disregarded John's prolouge? in what way my post have disregarded it?
.
__________________ And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.
And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?Gen 3:10-11
am i included in the "you all who totally disregarded John's prolouge? in what way my post have disregarded it?
.
Sorry hybrid
Your post started with you agreed with Harlin and I guess that is what stuck. I should have been more specific to the long posts posing the Son of God being made by God, etc. I will be more careful in future.
i basically agree with your post here, for come to think of it, the father and son description of the bible has no meaning at all if it were'n't so.
if i recall it right, our contention was as to the timing of the bringin forth of the son/word. you believed that the son was brougth forth within the timeframe while i posit that he was with the father before there was ever a thing we call time. that's why we say he was eternal, it only means that like the father he was also unaffected by the passage of time. is this correct?
Prov 8:22-23
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Hi Hybrid, hows things?
I agree with you here. I believe Jesus was "brought forth" so far back in the days of eternity before our creation that it is essentially eternity. Yes, I agree, Jesus was before time even existed, before anything was, He was with the Father, and through Christ God brought everything into existence.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
How can you all totally disregard this part of the bible that without any doubt places the Son of God(Jesus)with God in the very beginning and not only with God but the Word WAS God........obviously is God and always will be God whether in Heaven, on earth or anywhere?
If you do not believe this then you do not believe the bible.
Hello,
I'm sorry, in what way does my post state that I don't believe in the Bible or that I don't believe Jesus to be the "Eternal Word". I agree with everything John says, there is nothing I don't agree with here.
If you read my post a little more carefully you will see this too. Feel free to point out where I am going wrong? I'm open.
My understanding of the Son being brought forth from the Father comes from several texts. I too believe Jesus is the creator and is all God. But, I do believe that Jesus had His origin in the Father, these are the scriptures that convince me of this.
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he; before me THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, neither shall there be after me. I even I am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour" Isaiah 43:10-11
Paul then says that Jesus was in the "form of God" in Philippians 2:6
In Proverbs 8:22-26 it talks about the wisdom of God being "brought forth" and "as one brought up with him". We then read in 1 Corin 1:24 that Jesus IS the wisdom of God. I believe this shows that Jesus was brought forth from the Father.
We are told in Romans 1: 19-20 that:
"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them. 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are CLEARLY SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, even his eternal power and GODHEAD; so that they are without excuse"
This tells me that by creation we can understand the Godhead. Many say that the trinity can be proven by water, light, eggs, apples and many other analogies, however, I believe that since we are made in God's image and not all those other things we should reveal the Godhead.
This is evident in the creation of Eve in the Garden of Eden. She was not created like Adam was, she was brought forth from the same substance as Adam, she was created from his rib, and yet was completely human like Adam was. I understand that God brought forth a Son in that same manner, who was completely God, just like Eve was human because of His origin. This does not however, make Jesus the Father, the One True God of the Bible (1 Corin 8:6, Eph4:6), but makes Him the Son of God, completely having all the attributes of God.
This makes the most sense to me and I can fit all scripture into this understanding, there is no contradictions. That is why I believe that when Jesus was stating that "the Father is greater than I", that the translation "elder" fits better with the rest of scripture, as we know that Jesus IS equal to the Father, He has been exalted to that position.
God Bless,
Harlin
Brought forth to me means something entirely different than "The Word IS/WAS God". "The Word is God" says the Word did not have to be brought forth, He simply IS God.
You say at one point in red that this does not make Jesus the Father. The Word IS God, Jesus IS the Word, Jesus IS the Father. God is One. In the beginning the Word was with God, the Word was God(not a second or day or year or eon later but In the beginning)....that adds up to One.
The Father is greater than I was said by Jesus fully man and of course the Father is greater than the fully man Son.
If I misinterpret you, I apologize. It seems tho' to me that you are saying something close to John but not quite and it can easily be taken to mean close to or the same as the others.
Now back to the subject of family. As I said, in my opinion the family of God is God. And that is how I believe we would become God. We would be begotten into the family of God, being One with God and thereby becoming God. That would make us equal to God (though not equal to The Father, necessarily) in the same way that Jesus was even emptied of his divinity as a man:
The reason the Jews wanted to stone Jesus was because he said he and his Father were one, and they knew by that statement he meant he was God. He then quotes to them from Psalms:
By the way, the word gods, in the Hebrew is elohiym, and is the same word used for God. So I want to make it plain that I am not saying that we will become gods, or that The Father and The Son are seperate gods. See, elohiym is a plural word, but it has to be taken in its context, so when it said gods in that verse in Psalms, it meant God. One God. The same in Greek (and the words still need to be understood in their context): theos means gods, theos also means God (and if I'm not mistaken,when ho precedes theos, as in ho theos, and translated "the God", this means The Father specifically). One God. The family which at that time and even now consists of Two beings, but will, after Christ returns, consist of God's people.
Psalm 82:1; A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
In some cases, the same word can only be used in the plural, not the plural intensive/singular. You can not 'judge among the God'. It is the same hebrew word used for both, but they have slightly different meanings.
Other than that, I agree with everything you have said above.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
Psalm 82:1; A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
In some cases, the same word can only be used in the plural, not the plural intensive/singular. You can not 'judge among the God'. It is the same hebrew word used for both, but they have slightly different meanings.
Other than that, I agree with everything you have said above.
Check out the rest of Psalm 82. Note in red. The word gods was not referring to God according to this.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods": 2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
I think the reference is to judges, people in power to judge, like the judges in the bible maybe.
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