Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
Do you think that we might be given a commandment that we are unable to keep in order to show us our need for a Savior?
As I said, we are able to become perfect through the atonement and grace of Christ.
Originally Posted by skylark1
Sometimes perfect was used to describe complete.
Does this change the meaning of that scripture?
Originally Posted by skylark1
I believe that Phillipians 2:5-6 is speaking of humility, and considering one another better than ouselves, not of us ever being equal with God the Father. Verses 3-4 read:
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but to the interests of others.
Yes it is teaching humility throught the example of the Saviour. It teaches that we should be humble and not think ourselves better than others, because we all have the same potential and God being all-loving does everything to give his children the potential to become like Himself and nothing less.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
As I said, we are able to become perfect through the atonement and grace of Christ.
That really didn't address my question: Do you think that we might be given a commandment that we are unable to keep in order to show us our need for a Savior?
Does this change the meaning of that scripture?
It depend what you meant by your interpretation. It sounded to me as though you thought that Christ was lacking in some way until after the atonement. I disagree wtih that. God's plan of salvation was fulfilled, perfected, completed, through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
Yes it is teaching humility throught the example of the Saviour. It teaches that we should be humble and not think ourselves better than others, because we all have the same potential and God being all-loving does everything to give his children the potential to become like Himself and nothing less.
That passage of scripture does not state that we have the same potential to be equal to the Father.
__________________
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Colossians 3:12-14
Consider this... As Man now is, Christ once was. As Christ now is, Man may become.
I do rather believe in the truth of that statement. That goes along nicely with my belief that God is a family consisting presently of TWO beings: The Father and The Son. I believe they were together as One in a family called God at creation, and this is why it says in certain passages of the Bible that all that was created was created through the Son. For example, this passage:
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him
This definitely shows that the Son was present with the Father before anything was created. It plainly says that by [the Son] everything was created. This goes along with another passage which states:
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And also, I would like to point out that since by the Son everything created or made was created or made, then the Son himself was not made or created. I personally take this to mean he was eternally existing with the Father.
Now back to the subject of family. As I said, in my opinion the family of God is God. And that is how I believe we would become God. We would be begotten into the family of God, being One with God and thereby becoming God. That would make us equal to God (though not equal to The Father, necessarily) in the same way that Jesus was even emptied of his divinity as a man:
John 10:30-33 I and my Father are one. (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
The reason the Jews wanted to stone Jesus was because he said he and his Father were one, and they knew by that statement he meant he was God. He then quotes to them from Psalms:
John 10:34-36 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? (35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
( Psalms 82:6-7 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (7) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. )
By the way, the word gods, in the Hebrew is elohiym, and is the same word used for God. So I want to make it plain that I am not saying that we will become gods, or that The Father and The Son are seperate gods. See, elohiym is a plural word, but it has to be taken in its context, so when it said gods in that verse in Psalms, it meant God. One God. The same in Greek (and the words still need to be understood in their context): theos means gods, theos also means God (and if I'm not mistaken,when ho precedes theos, as in ho theos, and translated "the God", this means The Father specifically). One God. The family which at that time and even now consists of Two beings, but will, after Christ returns, consist of God's people.
__________________ Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
Last edited by CaerMac; 22nd June 2006 at 06:54 PM.
That really didn't address my question: Do you think that we might be given a commandment that we are unable to keep in order to show us our need for a Savior?
It did, but I will put it another way, as it is not a yes or no answer for me. If there was no Saviour, then the commandment would be impossible, but the existence of the Saviour and the fulfilment of the atonement makes this commandment possible for us. How can God show us the need for a Saviour by giving us a commandment that we can not keep? Unless you mean that God gives us a commandment that we can not keep if we rely on our own ability only, to show the need for a Saviour. There is no such thing as God giving commandments that we can not keep, as God provides a way for us to accomplish the thing that we are commanded. That way, in this case, is the atonement by the Saviour.
Originally Posted by skylark1
It depend what you meant by your interpretation. It sounded to me as though you thought that Christ was lacking in some way until after the atonement. I disagree wtih that. God's plan of salvation was fulfilled, perfected, completed, through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
Through His suffering Christ was able to understand and appreciate joy greater than ever and He was able to empathise with us when we go through our trials and tribulations. He was thus able to be the perfect judge, as he had experienced everything that we would ever experience.
Originally Posted by skylark1
That passage of scripture does not state that we have the same potential to be equal to the Father.
I believe that it is clear that it implies we should think ourselves able to be equal to God.
Also, if you take the other scriptures that I posted with this, such as the intercessory prayer and the quoting of Psalm 82 by Christ in John, then you will see that there is good reason to believe in the principle of exaltation going by the teachings of the Bible. And as Philippians says, you should not think it robbery to be equal with God. He is your all-loving Father is he not?
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
It did, but I will put it another way, as it is not a yes or no answer for me. If there was no Saviour, then the commandment would be impossible, but the existence of the Saviour and the fulfilment of the atonement makes this commandment possible for us. How can God show us the need for a Saviour by giving us a commandment that we can not keep? Unless you mean that God gives us a commandment that we can not keep if we rely on our own ability only, to show the need for a Saviour. There is no such thing as God giving commandments that we can not keep, as God provides a way for us to accomplish the thing that we are commanded. That way, in this case, is the atonement by the Saviour.
I believe that the law reveals the will of God and how he would have us live, but that it also that it also reveals our sins and shows us that it is not possible to please God by relying on obeying his laws completely. Because of that it reveals the need for a Savior. It brings us to Christ.
Through His suffering Christ was able to understand and appreciate joy greater than ever and He was able to empathise with us when we go through our trials and tribulations. He was thus able to be the perfect judge, as he had experienced everything that we would ever experience.
I agree wtih that.
I believe that it is clear that it implies we should think ourselves able to be equal to God.
Also, if you take the other scriptures that I posted with this, such as the intercessory prayer and the quoting of Psalm 82 by Christ in John, then you will see that there is good reason to believe in the principle of exaltation going by the teachings of the Bible. And as Philippians says, you should not think it robbery to be equal with God. He is your all-loving Father is he not?
Do you consider it to be LDS doctrine that we can become equal with God? Philippians doesn't say that we should not think it robbery to become equal with God. It states that Jesus did not consider it robbery. The same mind that we are to have is one of humility, and service to others.
__________________
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Colossians 3:12-14
Do you consider it to be LDS doctrine that we can become equal with God? Philippians doesn't say that we should not think it robbery to become equal with God. It states that Jesus did not consider it robbery. The same mind that we are to have is one of humility, and service to others.
I believe so. I don't know of any statement saying exactly that, but my interpretation of the scriptures (not just Philippians 2:5-6) and of what I have been taught leads me to believe that God as our Heavenly Father in presenting us with the plan of salvation, meant for us to have eternal life the same that he has, and that we should be able to become like Him, through our experinces here in mortality and/or after/before mortality. The only way that we shall be any different to Heavenly Father or Christ, if we endevour to keep the commandments and to continually try to improve ourselves and repent of our mistakes, is that we shall be indebted to God eternally, though they will not hold this against us, as they never intend for us to pay back that debt, but keep blessing us every time we try to pay back some of our debt.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
I do rather believe in the truth of that statement. That goes along nicely with my belief that God is a family consisting presently of TWO beings: The Father and The Son. I believe they were together as One in a family called God at creation, and this is why it says in certain passages of the Bible that all that was created was created through the Son.
I believe that the family is extended further than that, though whilst the Bible teaches that we may be one with Christ and the Father and that we amy have all that Christ inherits and all that the Father has, we shall also forever be in debt to the atonement. However, the love of God shows that we are never intended to catch up with paying that debt, as each time we ever do anything where we give of our time and ourselves for the glory of Heavenly Father, we are blessed for it.
Originally Posted by CaerMac
This definitely shows that the Son was present with the Father before anything was created. It plainly says that by [the Son] everything was created...
..And also, I would like to point out that since by the Son everything created or made was created or made, then the Son himself was not made or created. I personally take this to mean he was eternally existing with the Father.
I agree, except that I believe that there were things created spiritually before physically organised. I believe that matter is eternal and that it is always there in some form or another. I would argue that there is no limit to the universe or matter or the organisations/creations of God. Beyond this, I do not know whether Christ was eternally a Son of Christ or whether He too was created/organised from matter (to try to consider what exactly is meant by matter too is speculation) already existing. He did indeed organise the world and everything physical that we shall ever know at least in this mortal life, under the direction of the Father, but the fact that He didn't create the Father himself, shows that by everything, it does not necessarily mean everything.
Sorry, have to leave the rest for later, as I have to come off computer now:
Originally Posted by CaerMac
Now back to the subject of family. As I said, in my opinion the family of God is God. And that is how I believe we would become God. We would be begotten into the family of God, being One with God and thereby becoming God. That would make us equal to God (though not equal to The Father, necessarily) in the same way that Jesus was even emptied of his divinity as a man:
The reason the Jews wanted to stone Jesus was because he said he and his Father were one, and they knew by that statement he meant he was God. He then quotes to them from Psalms:
By the way, the word gods, in the Hebrew is elohiym, and is the same word used for God. So I want to make it plain that I am not saying that we will become gods, or that The Father and The Son are seperate gods. See, elohiym is a plural word, but it has to be taken in its context, so when it said gods in that verse in Psalms, it meant God. One God. The same in Greek (and the words still need to be understood in their context): theos means gods, theos also means God (and if I'm not mistaken,when ho precedes theos, as in ho theos, and translated "the God", this means The Father specifically). One God. The family which at that time and even now consists of Two beings, but will, after Christ returns, consist of all God's people who are saved.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
Beyond this, I do not know whether Christ was eternally a Son of Christ or whether He too was created/organised from matter (to try to consider what exactly is meant by matter too is speculation) already existing. He did indeed organise the world and everything physical that we shall ever know at least in this mortal life, under the direction of the Father, but the fact that He didn't create the Father himself, shows that by everything, it does not necessarily mean everything.
Well, it stands to reason that The Son didn't create the Father if they were together at creation. The Father is certainly eternal... there is no before. I do believe The Son is eternal, and I know neither were made.
As for what was created: yes all physical things, but then the verse I quoted from Colossians said all things "that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible." The word invisible makes me think that angels would be included, but then again...
__________________ Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...
Well, it stands to reason that The Son didn't create the Father if they were together at creation. The Father is certainly eternal... there is no before. I do believe The Son is eternal, and I know neither were made.
As for what was created: yes all physical things, but then the verse I quoted from Colossians said all things "that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible." The word invisible makes me think that angels would be included, but then again...
Col 3.16 in greek notice the greek word en for in him. En is primarily translated as in and only very seldom is it ever translated as by. But then whether one translates en as by or in in this verse depends on ones theology.
ejnEn (en);
Word Origin: Greek, Preposition, Strong #: 1722
in, by, with etc.
KJV Word Usage and Count in 1874 by 141 with 134 among 117 at 112 on 46 through 37 miscellaneous 321
In him all things were created is the more probable translation. En is overwhelmingly translated as in. That makes ‘in him all things were created’ figurative in that all things could not be created in the belly of Jesus. This translation also lines up with verses that say all things were created ‘through’ Jesus. Again figurative because all things are not literally created as they pass through Jesus belly.
Heb 2:10 Because it was right for him, for whom and through whom all things have being, in guiding his sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation complete through pain
BBE
Everything exists for the sole purpose of guiding his sons to glory. That was why God created the universe. To bring his sons to be unto the glory of the father. There is no reason to create a skunk except that it it part of the world system for man to live in. Same with all other creations on earth.
__________________ God is a spirit (jn 4:24)........... God is not a man...(Nu 23:19) A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me (Jesus) have (Lu 24:39).....the man Christ Jesus 1 ti 2:5
Well, it stands to reason that The Son didn't create the Father if they were together at creation. The Father is certainly eternal... there is no before. I do believe The Son is eternal, and I know neither were made.
As for what was created: yes all physical things, but then the verse I quoted from Colossians said all things "that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible." The word invisible makes me think that angels would be included, but then again...
Hello there,
My understanding of the Son being brought forth from the Father comes from several texts. I too believe Jesus is the creator and is all God. But, I do believe that Jesus had His origin in the Father, these are the scriptures that convince me of this.
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he; before me THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, neither shall there be after me. I even I am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour" Isaiah 43:10-11
Paul then says that Jesus was in the "form of God" in Philippians 2:6
In Proverbs 8:22-26 it talks about the wisdom of God being "brought forth" and "as one brought up with him". We then read in 1 Corin 1:24 that Jesus IS the wisdom of God. I believe this shows that Jesus was brought forth from the Father.
We are told in Romans 1: 19-20 that:
"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them. 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are CLEARLY SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, even his eternal power and GODHEAD; so that they are without excuse"
This tells me that by creation we can understand the Godhead. Many say that the trinity can be proven by water, light, eggs, apples and many other analogies, however, I believe that since we are made in God's image and not all those other things we should reveal the Godhead.
This is evident in the creation of Eve in the Garden of Eden. She was not created like Adam was, she was brought forth from the same substance as Adam, she was created from his rib, and yet was completely human like Adam was. I understand that God brought forth a Son in that same manner, who was completely God, just like Eve was human because of His origin. This does not however, make Jesus the Father, the One True God of the Bible (1 Corin 8:6, Eph4:6), but makes Him the Son of God, completely having all the attributes of God.
This makes the most sense to me and I can fit all scripture into this understanding, there is no contradictions. That is why I believe that when Jesus was stating that "the Father is greater than I", that the translation "elder" fits better with the rest of scripture, as we know that Jesus IS equal to the Father, He has been exalted to that position.
Linear Mode
