Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
The problem is that the teaching of the trinity contradicts itself and it is just as easy to show that the Bible does not teach trinity. I am interested in understanding the trinity, if someone could explain it to me, so that it doesn't contradict itself, but if not then I will continue to teach what I believe of the Godhead. And I see no reason not to, as I believe it to be more in line with the scriptures than the teaching of the trinity.
If you thought that I would accept your analogies as something to explain the trinity, then you are right that you were mistaken. They do not explain the trinity.
These are not contradictions. They do not state opposites. Instead, they are leaving you wondering "how can that be?" It is a paradox (a seeming contradiction): How can a man be God too? How can God be Three persons? You just have to accept it as so because the Scriptures reveal it as so.
You are the one who bolded "begotten" so if it doesn't answer your point then maybe you didn't bold the part that addressed your point. However, "begotten" being preceded by the predicate para in Jn 1:14 indicates a sharing of the same eternal nature as God and distinguishes Christ from the Father.
Ah right. I bolded it to make sure that you understood that I was talking about Christ in comparison to the Father.
Originally Posted by DevotiontoBible
What you are stating as a contradiction is really a paradox revealed by Scriptures. You are either going to accept the facts, as I have shown some to you by Gen 1:26 of one God who is a plurality of persons, and other scriptures that show us The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit to each be fully Divine...or you will not. As Martin Luther said "since it [Trinitarian theology] is based on clear Scripture, reason must be silent at this point and we must believe."-The Theology of Martin Luther p199
I accept those fine, but the concept of trinity is not taught by Gen 1:26 or other scriptures that show the divinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
I have never been a complete follower of Martin Luther's theology.
Genesis 1:26 teaches that there is a plurality of intelligence and mind and person. It also shows that each of these persons are in the same image and the same image as mankind. Everyone knows, whether they are trinitarian or not, that the Son is equal with the Father. That has nothing to do with the teachings of trinity as opposed to nontrinity.
God consists of 3 individual beings, each with their own mind and feeling. 2 of which submit themselves to the will of the Father. It is because of this submission that they are made equal to the Father, as they share in all that he has.
Unlike the teachings of trinity, I do not believe that God is one substance of 3 persons or forms.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
These are not contradictions. They do not state opposites. Instead, they are leaving you wondering "how can that be?" It is a paradox (a seeming contradiction): How can a man be God too? How can God be Three persons? You just have to accept it as so because the Scriptures reveal it as so.
You say that the scripture reveals it, but I don't think so. I don't think it teaches this at all.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
Genesis 1:26 teaches that there is a plurality of intelligence and mind and person. It also shows that each of these persons are in the same image and the same image as mankind. Everyone knows, whether they are trinitarian or not, that the Son is equal with the Father. That has nothing to do with the teachings of trinity as opposed to nontrinity.
.
The grammar of Gen 1:26 has everything to do with Trinitarian theology. "God said...let us..our image" One God yet a plurality of persons.
You say that the scripture reveals it, but I don't think so. I don't think it teaches this at all.
So what do you have from Scripture that would destroy the Scriptures that support the Trinity theology? I have provided several Scriptures that show the Trinity and you have only said "no it's not so".
Since you are Mormon you believe in 3 gods so, how much further from Scripture can you get than that?
No, my Church teaches Henotheism. I only believe in one God. Though the bible teaches the existence of gods.
Psalms 82:6-7 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
^ That is Jehovah speaking.
This God consists of 3 persons, but they are one God, because they work for the same will, which is the will of the Father. God is plural as you say.
John 10:28-35 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Romans 8:14-18; 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Philipians 2:5-6; 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
1 John 3:2; Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Genesis 3:5; For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
The grammar of Gen 1:26 has everything to do with Trinitarian theology. "God said...let us..our image" One God yet a plurality of persons.
^ This is Mormon theology.
It does not say that the one God is all one substance.
God is a plurality of persons, working for the same will.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
Since you are Mormon you believe in 3 gods so, how much further from Scripture can you get than that?
If God has a God, how many does that make? More than one, that is sure. There are three Gods that rule as one Godhead. The Father is the one absolute God - Christ and the Holy Spirit are subordinate to Him.
[bible]John 20:17[/bible]
As deraj correctly points out, the key difference between our viewpoints is that Jesus is of "one substance" with the Father. Where does the Bible teach this critical keystone of the Trinity doctrine?
Can someone help me understand from a Trinitarian viewpoint how an Essence that is "one substance" can be divided such that one partition is subordinate to the other?
So what do you have from Scripture that would destroy the Scriptures that support the Trinity theology? I have provided several Scriptures that show the Trinity and you have only said "no it's not so".
Stephen sees the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Jesus prays to Heavenly Father in Gethsemane and shows that he and the Father have seperate wills, but Jesus submits his will to the Fathers'.
Jesus is baptised and a voice is heard from Heaven saying, "thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased" and the Spirit descends upon Him like a dove.
__________________ William Tyndale - "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth the plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost."
Linear Mode
