| Unorthodox Theology A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
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17th June 2006, 02:44 PM
|  | In awesome wonder
 
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Reps: 20,732,757,815,753,600 (power: 20,732,757,815,773) | | Originally Posted by Deraj Trinity - Three divine persons with the same intelligence/mind/spirit - exactly the same except the way they appear or manifest themselves. Exactly equal, because they think the same thing at the same time, have the same experience and knowledge and feeling/emotion. But they still decide to talk to each other, and confuse people by showing themselves, all three at the same time in different ways, as if they were not the same. The way they manifest themselves decides what they are referred to as. Am I right?
Deraj,
I haven't read all of this thread, so I hope that I am not repeating what has already been said. I thought that the following might help: Trinity
A word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isaiah 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
Easton's Bible Dictionary
__________________ There exists a mystery in the world, and in all the looks of it—a mystery because of a meaning. There is a jubilance in every sunrise, a sober sadness in every sunset. There is a whispering of strange secrets in the wind of twilight and an unknown bliss in the song of the lark.
George MacDonald
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17th June 2006, 03:31 PM
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Reps: 18,726 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Deraj Then it is not heresy to say that God is not 1 person in 3 forms, as nontrinitarianism is arguably based on the Bible. The creeds are based on scripture? So is nontrinitarianism.
Since you are Mormon, then you think the Scriptures teach of three gods. How is that based on Scripture since as GeorgE has presented that 'God is one'? |
17th June 2006, 03:41 PM
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I haven't read all of this thread, so I hope that I am not repeating what has already been said. I thought that the following might help: Trinity
A word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isaiah 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
Easton's Bible Dictionary
How distinctly individual are they?Do they think for themselves or do they have the same thoughts? feelings at the same time?
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17th June 2006, 03:52 PM
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Reps: 18,726 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Deraj How distinctly individual are they?Do they think for themselves or do they have the same thoughts? feelings at the same time?
They have separate, though never conflicting wills (Lk 22:42' 1 Cor 12:11) The Father speaks to the Son using the second person pronoun "you": "You are my Son, whom I love" (Lk 3:22) Jesus offered Himself to the Father through the Spirit ( Heb 9:14). Jesus states that He came "not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me" (Jn 6:38) |
17th June 2006, 03:57 PM
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Reps: 754 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by AngCath The Trinity is fundamental to Christian theology. Deny the Trinity and you are a heretic.
Where stated?
How about a little chapter and verse. |
17th June 2006, 04:07 PM
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How about a little chapter and verse.
Whoever denies the full deity of Jesus as being equal in deity to that of the Father does not have the Father.
"...This is the antichrist, even he that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that confesseth the Son hath the Father also." 1 Jn 2:22-23 |
17th June 2006, 04:25 PM
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Reps: 117 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by DevotiontoBible They have separate, though never conflicting wills (Lk 22:42' 1 Cor 12:11) The Father speaks to the Son using the second person pronoun "you": "You are my Son, whom I love" (Lk 3:22) Jesus offered Himself to the Father through the Spirit ( Heb 9:14). Jesus states that He came "not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me" (Jn 6:38)
The Nicene Creed: We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Explain the bold part of the text please..
Does this not contradict your own beliefs?
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17th June 2006, 05:00 PM
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Reps: 18,726 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Deraj The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Explain the bold part of the text please..
Does this not contradict your own beliefs?
You need to clarify what you think is contradictory. The term "only begotten" is a Greek word that speaks of relationship. It is used in Heb 11 of Isaac. Isaac was not Abraham's only son therefore, the word is not about birth or beginnings but it is about love and preeminence. |
17th June 2006, 05:04 PM
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The best illustration of the Trinity that I have heard is that if light. I think that it helps to explain the one essense or substance.
Light can be regarded from the standpoint of its composition. Light is one substance, but it is composed of three different properties: actinic, luminiferous, and calorific.
Actinic light is a ray of light of short wavelengths that produces photochemical effects. Photochemical effects are related to the effects of light on chemical systems. Actinic light is neither seen nor felt, an illustration of God the Father.
Luminiferous light is light produced as a result of heat. Luminiferous light is both seen and felt, an illustration of God the Son.
Calorific light is light converted into heat. Calorific light is not seen but felt, an illustration of God the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, the composition of light is analogous to the three persons in the Godhead who are one. Light is one with three properties. God is one in essence but three persons. 
__________________ There exists a mystery in the world, and in all the looks of it—a mystery because of a meaning. There is a jubilance in every sunrise, a sober sadness in every sunset. There is a whispering of strange secrets in the wind of twilight and an unknown bliss in the song of the lark.
George MacDonald
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17th June 2006, 05:10 PM
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Reps: 117 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by skylark1 Deraj,
The best illustration of the Trinity that I have heard is that if light. I think that it helps to explain the one essense or substance.
Light can be regarded from the standpoint of its composition. Light is one substance, but it is composed of three different properties: actinic, luminiferous, and calorific.
Actinic light is a ray of light of short wavelengths that produces photochemical effects. Photochemical effects are related to the effects of light on chemical systems. Actinic light is neither seen nor felt, an illustration of God the Father.
Luminiferous light is light produced as a result of heat. Luminiferous light is both seen and felt, an illustration of God the Son.
Calorific light is light converted into heat. Calorific light is not seen but felt, an illustration of God the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, the composition of light is analogous to the three persons in the Godhead who are one. Light is one with three properties. God is one in essence but three persons.
Arguably not the best of analogies I am sorry to say. Stephen saw both the Father and the Son. You can't see Actinic, but you can see the Father.
Also light does not have a mind, so is a poor analogy to explain how one substance can have 3 different intelligences/minds that think differently and have different emotions, because they are individual.
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