Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
Can you show the steps of mutation needed to change one species into another. Do we have to accept on faith that mutations can make the needed change or is their actual evidence to that effect. I mean REAL evidence and not kangaroo court evidence. You can preach to the choir all you want, but I want real world rubber meets the road evidence.
__________________ It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him.
-- Abraham Lincoln
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-- Ben Franklin
Can you show the steps of mutation needed to change one species into another. Do we have to accept on faith that mutations can make the needed change or is their actual evidence to that effect. I mean REAL evidence and not kangaroo court evidence. You can preach to the choir all you want, but I want real world rubber meets the road evidence.
Ring speciesprovide a good example of this since we can sample their DNA right now and identify the genetic differences.
Identifying the mutation steps associated with a historical speciation event, such as the evolution of whales, is all but impossible because we cannot sample the genetic material of any of its extinct precursors. Fortunately, we don't need to do this to know whales evolved, to identify their precursors, or to place them on a phylogenic tree. Fossils and other genetic tests are more than sufficient for this.
Likewise, crime scene investigators do not need to know every miniscule detail of a crime to determine who did it and how. After the suspect broke into the house, did he put his foot down on this particular patch of carpet? Did he wipe his nose with his sleeve? Don't know, don't care. We do know that his blood and hair are at the scene of the crime, that the ballistics match his gun, that he had a motive, and that he's got no alibi. That spells conviction.
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Can you show the steps of mutation needed to change one species into another. Do we have to accept on faith that mutations can make the needed change or is their actual evidence to that effect. I mean REAL evidence and not kangaroo court evidence. You can preach to the choir all you want, but I want real world rubber meets the road evidence.
Scientists have already observed the emergence of new species in several varieties of plants, specifically, beans and some varieties of lilies, if I recall correctly.
I think what you are questioning is the criteria used to determine when a new species has emerged or if we are simply studying an isolated abberation from an existing species' genotype/phenotype.
__________________ Sometimes being smart and wise isn't a good thing. It can blind us to the truth when we try to think too much. --Anonymous Christian.
I can prove that Jesus is God. Jesus is God because Jesus is exactly what I mean when I say "God." Hence, Jesus is God. --Anonymous Christian.
. . . It should, indeed, come as a revelation and a rebuke to all liberals that Holy Scripture identifies "favoring the poor" as "a perversion of justice." . . . --Anonymous Christian.
Can you show the steps of mutation needed to change one species into another. Do we have to accept on faith that mutations can make the needed change or is their actual evidence to that effect. I mean REAL evidence and not kangaroo court evidence. You can preach to the choir all you want, but I want real world rubber meets the road evidence.
Is this guy capable of starting a thread for discussion without being pompous and condescending?
__________________ Sometimes being smart and wise isn't a good thing. It can blind us to the truth when we try to think too much. --Anonymous Christian.
I can prove that Jesus is God. Jesus is God because Jesus is exactly what I mean when I say "God." Hence, Jesus is God. --Anonymous Christian.
. . . It should, indeed, come as a revelation and a rebuke to all liberals that Holy Scripture identifies "favoring the poor" as "a perversion of justice." . . . --Anonymous Christian.
Mutation alone is only part of the constellation of requirements that lead to the formation of a new species. It means little without the action of natural selection and the forces of gene flow and drift. So no, I cannot do that, and science if fairly clear on how this works. Neither history or evolution operate in a "vacuum." (heh, unless, in the literal sense, you mean "space"... although that isn't really a "true" vacuum)
Can you show the steps of mutation needed to change one species into another. Do we have to accept on faith that mutations can make the needed change or is their actual evidence to that effect. I mean REAL evidence and not kangaroo court evidence. You can preach to the choir all you want, but I want real world rubber meets the road evidence.
Can you show me evidence of God without your kangaroo court evidence?
__________________ "History is an illusion caused by the passage
of time, and time is an illusion caused by the passage of
history."
Scientists have already observed the emergence of new species in several varieties of plants, specifically, beans and some varieties of lilies, if I recall correctly.
I think what you are questioning is the criteria used to determine when a new species has emerged or if we are simply studying an isolated abberation from an existing species' genotype/phenotype.
Plants are good places to start to answer these kinds of questions. Partly because they tend to polypoidy, especially with cultivated plants like rice, wheat and maize. Since they are important to people, since we like to eat *grin*, there also tends to be a bit more research than on other creatures. Another thing which makes them easier to study is that fixation in a population is easier since a single plant can produce lots of fertile seeds where a good mutation in animals may have a hard time fixing in a population.
another good study is hemoglobin and myogloblin, mostly because of the increasing number of chains, which are in turn multiple genes and the presence of pseudgenes.
likewise the blood clotting proteins form a good study to show gene duplication and divergence.
__________________ i got a warning for flaming.
i find myself unable to participate here as a result.
this being the first of it's kind since i signed into FidoNet 20 years ago.
and am no longer posting to CF.
thanks to everyone who i have encountered over the years i spent here.
Last edited by rmwilliamsll; 2nd June 2006 at 08:56 PM.
Is this guy capable of starting a thread for discussion without being pompous and condescending?
Not when I have to put up with the **** I have to put up with from the evolutionists on this forum. It is the natural reaction to the heathen beliefs I run into on here.
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