If the tribulation has been then Christ must have come!

judge · #1 14th December 2002, 07:34 AM

If the tribulation has already happened then the Lord must have already come in "power and glory".

How can I be so sure? easy! In Matthew 24:29 jesus said..." Immediately after the distress of those days..."the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light, the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.....At THAT time the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with great power and glory"

 

HOW MUCH MORE PLAIN COULD OUR LORD HAVE BEEN????

Immediatly after means immediately after...doesn't it?

OldShepherd · #2 14th December 2002, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by judge
If the tribulation has already happened then the Lord must have already come in "power and glory".

How can I be so sure? easy! In Matthew 24:29 jesus said..." Immediately after the distress of those days..."the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light, the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.....At THAT time the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with great power and glory"

 

HOW MUCH MORE PLAIN COULD OUR LORD HAVE BEEN????

Immediatly after means immediately after...doesn't it?

And yet another thread arguing the same thing, over and over and over. You don't like the answers you get on one thread so you start another one. Okay, J answer me this IF the Lord has come in power and glory why did the entire early church 100-300+ AD NOT know anything about it? I have posted several references, all of which clearly state that day is still in the future.

GW · #3 14th December 2002, 10:17 AM

Great post, Judge.

And, here's a list of some well-known expositors that have placed the great tribulation at AD 67-70:

Eusebius
Chrysostom
Augustine
Bishop Thomas Newton
John Calvin
John Locke
Matthew Henry
Dr. John Owen
Sir Isaac Newton
William Whiston
Jonathan Edwards
C. Berkhower
F. F Bruce
Adam Clark
C.H. Spurgeon
John Wesley

These all taught the Great Tribulation was the siege of Jerusalem of the first century.

judge · #4 14th December 2002, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by OldShepherd
And yet another thread arguing the same thing, over and over and over. You don't like the answers you get on one thread so you start another one. Okay, J answer me this IF the Lord has come in power and glory why did the entire early church 100-300+ AD NOT know anything about it? I have posted several references, all of which clearly state that day is still in the future.

 

Thanks OS , but can we talk about the scripture rather than the words of men.

Men tend to get things wrong. But if we look at the words of our Lord then I can only see one way to interpret it.

OldShepherd · #5 15th December 2002, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by judge
 

Thanks OS , but can we talk about the scripture rather than the words of men.

Men tend to get things wrong. But if we look at the words of our Lord then I can only see one way to interpret it.

That is a a cop out but lets do it. I want you to prove to me from scripture that all of the events prophesied by Jesus in Matt 24 actually, literally ocurred. Especially I want to see the scriptural accounts of the angels sounding trumpets, the Lord Himself appearing in the clouds, like lightning from east to west, in view of ALL (NOT just Rome and Israel) the tribes of the earth, and ALL the saints gathered from the four corners of the earth, from the uttermost part of the the earth to the utter most part of heaven.

You want to talk about scripture, then talk away!

And just for the record I don't think John's disciples, Ignatius and Polycarp, or Paul's disciple, Barnabas, tended to get things wrong. Rather, I think it is MEN coming along 2000 years later who are more likely to have it wrong.

OldShepherd · #6 15th December 2002, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by GW
Great post, Judge.

And, here's a list of some well-known expositors that have placed the great tribulation at AD 67-70:

Eusebius
*snip*

These all taught the Great Tribulation was the siege of Jerusalem of the first century.

But judge rejects the writings of all men. And I notice that you did NOT mention a single 1st, 2nd, or 3rd century "expositor", like Irenaeus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Mathetes, Origen, etc., some of whom, I have quoted which, oh BTW, ALL say the great trib was still in the future. But they COULD have gotten it wrong, maybe John and Paul didn't know it already happened.

judge · #7 15th December 2002, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by OldShepherd
That is a a cop out but lets do it. I want you to prove to me from scripture that all of the events prophesied by Jesus in Matt 24 actually, literally ocurred. Especially I want to see the scriptural accounts of the angels sounding trumpets, the Lord Himself appearing in the clouds, like lightning from east to west, in view of ALL (NOT just Rome and Israel) the tribes of the earth, and ALL the saints gathered from the four corners of the earth, from the uttermost part of the the earth to the utter most part of heaven.

You want to talk about scripture, then talk away!

And just for the record I don't think John's disciples, Ignatius and Polycarp, or Paul's disciple, Barnabas, tended to get things wrong. Rather, I think it is MEN coming along 2000 years later who are more likely to have it wrong.

 

The indisputable point is that Jesus used the word IMMEDIATELY. He must have come in glory right after the tribulation.

Whether it was literal or figurative or whatever I can not be sure...but we can be sure that it happened straight afterwaords because Jesus Himself told us.

 

All the best

edpobre · #8 15th December 2002, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by judge
If the tribulation has already happened then the Lord must have already come in "power and glory".

How can I be so sure? easy! In Matthew 24:29 jesus said..." Immediately after the distress of those days..."the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light, the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.....At THAT time the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with great power and glory"

 

HOW MUCH MORE PLAIN COULD OUR LORD HAVE BEEN????

Immediatly after means immediately after...doesn't it?

judge,

That's the danger of studying the Bible WITHOUT the guidance of a messenger SENT from God. Even the learned eunuch who was in charge of the queen's treasury needed apostle Philip to walk him through the book of Isaiah (Acts 8:30-31).

The Bible was NOT written the way a book, a magazine or a newspaper is written. Thus, Matthew 24?:30 has NOTHING to do with Matthew 24:29.

Matthew 24:29 refers to events that occur AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem while Matthew 24:30 refers to what will occur when the Son of Man is REVEALED with his angels and ALL tribes on earth will SEE Jesus COME down from heaven in the SAME manner that people SAW him go into heaven (Acts 1:11).

Apostle Paul wrote that when the Son of Man (Jesus) is REVEALED with his angels "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thes. 1:8), these will be PUNISHED will everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power (2 Thes. 1:9).

When the Son of Man COMES in that day to be glorified with his saints (2 Thes. 1:10) ALL his saints will be GATHERED to him (2 Thes. 2:1).

Now tell me HONESTLY judge, are there people TODAY who do NOT know God? Are there people TODAY who do NOT obey the gospel of Christ? Have ALL the saints of Christ been GATHERED together to him?

The Bible tells us that the COMING of the Lord (Jesus) is judgment day when UNGODLY people are burned (2 Peter 3:7), the earth and the works that are in it will melt (2 Peter 3:10) and those who are "IN" Christ (dead and alive) will meet Jesus in the air and be with him for ever and ever (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Has anyone SEEN any of these happening?

Ed

parousia70 · #9 15th December 2002, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by edpobre

The Bible was NOT written the way a book, a magazine or a newspaper is written. Thus, Matthew 24?:30 has NOTHING to do with Matthew 24:29.

WHAT??

This one you'll need to prove.

Prove that Jesus didn't deliver this message in the manner and order that is recorded in the text.

Prove that Matt 24:29 has nothing to do with Matt 24:30 

Prove that the phrase "THEN the sign of the son of man will appear....." isn't referring to what takes place at that time that the sun and moon go out, and the stars fall and heavens shake.

(Note: Then, "Grk" tote, does in fact mean "At that time")

And please, while you are at it, go ahead and prove that Matt 24:29 referrs to events "AFTER" Jerusalems 70AD destruction

 

GW · #10 15th December 2002, 06:02 PM

OLD SHEPHERD:
And I notice that you did NOT mention a single 1st, 2nd, or 3rd century "expositor", like Irenaeus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Mathetes, Origen, etc., some of whom, I have quoted

GW:
The Church declared the eschatology of all these ones heretical. Their premillennialism simply didn't hold up to the amillennialism of their contemporaries which eventually won out for all in the 300s.

OLD SHEPHERD:
which, oh BTW, ALL say the great trib was still in the future.

GW:
??? All of whom?