Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
This is a pseudo-rant, pseudo-debate, so please understand my lack of physical evidence or even logical backing for the following. I was pondering the other day about the vast symbolic links between the Christian faith and that of the pagans. The sacrificed deity motif seems to occur in nearly all of the ancient paths. Most pagans take that as Christianity stole/integrated beliefs from the pagans and their religion is not wholly their own.
However, perhaps Christianity, Jesus Christ, is quite the opposite. Perhaps the stories of the sacrficing deities was simply God's way of prophesying to the Gentiles the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Those stories, myths, of the pagans were all just highly complicated metaphors sparked by God so that all would come to know His Son...perhaps.
Again, I have no means of backing this claim...I was simply wondering what everyone else thought, particularly the Christians and the pagans. My apologies for not possessing any sort of evidence to back up my claim. However, I did feel as though that thought was inspired by something that wasn't wholly myself. I don't want to go as far as saying the Holy Spirit guided me, because I am most likely wrong. But still...what if?
God bless,
--Oni
__________________ The advent is near, children of the Nameless God; the Rapture has come and gone, now let the Tribulation begin!
There is a common thread that runs throughout all the ancient religions from as far back as ancient Egypt, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism etc. The story of the "son of God" who sacrifices himself for his people, dies and resurrects. This "son of God" is known by many names in many cultures.
Take for instance Mithras, who was the God of Constantine and the Roman armies. He was an ancient Persian god. If you research his story you will see that he was born of a virgin in a cave over which a star stood, was visited by 3 magi, was given gifts, came as the saviour of the world, was crucified on a cross, died and was resurrected....ascended to heaven and will come in the future to judge everyone. Sound familiar?
Christians say that the Mithras "myth" was stolen from CHristianity and was actually the story of Jesus. BUt scholars say that since Mithraism was much older than Christianity that Christians would have had to have stolen from MIthraism and applied it to Jesus.
Who is correct?
I think the bottom line is that there is a thread of God's truth that runs through all of humanity....an "illimination" if you will, that is in every culture, every country since the beginning of time. This thread of truth becomes wrapped in myth and allegory....hidden behind symbols and signs....enshrined behind the names of pagan gods and goddesses.....but still shines beneath them all as the thread of God's light to the human race.
I think every religion that's ever existed has been man's way of trying to elaborate on that one golden strand of truth. That one simple command of God to humans that is found in
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Mankind has forever formulated a million and one ways to "look unto me and be saved". It's the essence of every religion.....the core of every spiritual endeavor. Man trying to figure out how to "look unto Me". But in essence everyone is trying to do that same thing.....LOOK UNTO GOD AND BE SAVED. It's at the heart of every religion. God may be known as Ahura Mazda, Brahma, Allah, Jehovah, Great Spirit, Supreme Architect of the Universe or a million and one other cultural names for the "Unseen and Ineffable One" that is the first Cause of all that is. But still the heart of that religion is to obey the command in Isaiah...to "look unto God and be saved". If you ask any of them, that is what they will say they are doing.
The question is, does God accept some and reject others who try to obey His command? Does He have patience and grace towards humanity stumbling around here in the dark trying to look unto Him and be saved?
That is one I can't answer. But since God is a God of infinite grace, love, mercy, patience, kindness, justice and righteousness I would have to believe that He accepts any man from any nation who fears Him and does what is right while trying to obey His one great command.
I love Dion Fortune's take on the deities of old. She says that when primordial man looked at Nature and observed all the forces that were invisible to their eye they called them gods. The names of the idols are simply metaphors for the underlying spiritual/natural forces that emanate from the I AM and are a part of Him.
So, if all nations have a dying god, then they all have witnessed that aspect of God that manifested as the Son in the Trinity: Jesus Christ. Osiris isn't Christ, but simply a veil of the emanation of the Son of God filtered through the Egyptian culture.
Now, I know how odd that sounds, yet it makes sense to my all-knowing 18 year old mind.
__________________ The advent is near, children of the Nameless God; the Rapture has come and gone, now let the Tribulation begin!
Mithraism's not "much older" than Christianity. There is one possible reference to Mithraism that predates Jesus, but it may just as easily refer to the Mithras of Zoroastrianism rather than the Mithras of Mithraism (the two are very different). We have no real evidence for Mithraism until the second century AD. Also, as I recall, Constantine worshipped not Mithras but Sol Invictus, the sun god. Prior to his conversion, of course.
As for the OP, I believe it was Justin Martyr who suggested that demons imitated the truth of Christianity in the pagan myths and cults they inspired, so as to detract from the truth when it arrived. Don't know if that's correct or not, but thought I'd throw it out there. It's certainly plausible.
I have thought similar to the OP.
Though, in the bible history account, the sacrifices carried out over many years were animals etc. and not God or gods. Also in the account of Christ, is God himself laying down his life and the resurrection; not a myth.
Mithraism's not "much older" than Christianity. There is one possible reference to Mithraism that predates Jesus, but it may just as easily refer to the Mithras of Zoroastrianism rather than the Mithras of Mithraism (the two are very different). We have no real evidence for Mithraism until the second century AD. Also, as I recall, Constantine worshipped not Mithras but Sol Invictus, the sun god. Prior to his conversion, of course.
As for the OP, I believe it was Justin Martyr who suggested that demons imitated the truth of Christianity in the pagan myths and cults they inspired, so as to detract from the truth when it arrived. Don't know if that's correct or not, but thought I'd throw it out there. It's certainly plausible.
-CK
Do a little more in depth research CK.....Constantine, the Roman Armies and the elite of Rome worshipped Mithras whose cult was later joined with another to be renamed "sol invictus". The Zoroastrian Mithras was the forrunner of the Roman Mithras....although some of the rites were different.
Anyway, to me it appears obvious that since there are so many pagan god myths (predating Christianity) about a saviour god who sacrifices himself for his followers, rises again, ascends to heaven and will come to judge in the future.....that it is part of that thread of truth that God has given to all men.....and it is wrapped in different lingo, symbols and allegories in each culture and religion. But it is ultimately all of them trying to obey God's great command:
"Look to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other".
All religious people everywhere, in every culture, all want the same thing. To be able to look to God and BE SAVED. It is that endeavor that forms every religion since antiquity.
I love Dion Fortune's take on the deities of old. She says that when primordial man looked at Nature and observed all the forces that were invisible to their eye they called them gods. The names of the idols are simply metaphors for the underlying spiritual/natural forces that emanate from the I AM and are a part of Him.
So, if all nations have a dying god, then they all have witnessed that aspect of God that manifested as the Son in the Trinity: Jesus Christ. Osiris isn't Christ, but simply a veil of the emanation of the Son of God filtered through the Egyptian culture.
Now, I know how odd that sounds, yet it makes sense to my all-knowing 18 year old mind.
Doesn't sound odd to me at all. I understand exactly what you're saying. And I agree.
Are you by any chance a student of Kabbalah? Your use of the term "emanation" intrigued me.
This is a pseudo-rant, pseudo-debate, so please understand my lack of physical evidence or even logical backing for the following. I was pondering the other day about the vast symbolic links between the Christian faith and that of the pagans. The sacrificed deity motif seems to occur in nearly all of the ancient paths. Most pagans take that as Christianity stole/integrated beliefs from the pagans and their religion is not wholly their own.
However, perhaps Christianity, Jesus Christ, is quite the opposite. Perhaps the stories of the sacrficing deities was simply God's way of prophesying to the Gentiles the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Those stories, myths, of the pagans were all just highly complicated metaphors sparked by God so that all would come to know His Son...perhaps.
Again, I have no means of backing this claim...I was simply wondering what everyone else thought, particularly the Christians and the pagans. My apologies for not possessing any sort of evidence to back up my claim. However, I did feel as though that thought was inspired by something that wasn't wholly myself. I don't want to go as far as saying the Holy Spirit guided me, because I am most likely wrong. But still...what if?
God bless,
--Oni
The Pagans,ie BYU beat the Christians ie Notre Dame?
I bet jeffs knows the answer, Docctt on the other hand doesnt like sports he reads books on saturday afternoons, but he does have all the answers to Jeopardy.
Do a little more in depth research CK.....Constantine, the Roman Armies and the elite of Rome worshipped Mithras whose cult was later joined with another to be renamed "sol invictus".
Hardly a point worth debating, but for the record, I disagree. Constantine was associated with Sol Invictus, not with Mithras, and while the two cults were very similar, they were not one and the same.
You would actually gain a great deal by studying the following link, which debunks a number of the misconceptions you seem to have adopted from the admirable but outdated work of Franz Cumont:
The Zoroastrian Mithras was the forrunner of the Roman Mithras....although some of the rites were different.
The Mithras of the Roman mystery religion was borrowed from Zoroastrianism, as you suggest. But apart from name, image, and a few personality traits, the two deities and their accompanying faiths are dramatically different. The Mithras of Zoroastrianism had none of the qualities Christians have been accused of borrowing from him; insofar as these are true (they have been largely debunked), they are true only of the later Roman Mithras.
Hardly a point worth debating, but for the record, I disagree. Constantine was associated with Sol Invictus, not with Mithras, and while the two cults were very similar, they were not one and the same.
You would actually gain a great deal by studying the following link, which debunks a number of the misconceptions you seem to have adopted from the admirable but outdated work of Franz Cumont:
The Mithras of the Roman mystery religion was borrowed from Zoroastrianism, as you suggest. But apart from name, image, and a few personality traits, the two deities and their accompanying faiths are dramatically different. The Mithras of Zoroastrianism had none of the qualities Christians have been accused of borrowing from him; insofar as these are true (they have been largely debunked), they are true only of the later Roman Mithras.
-CK
It's pointless to debate the whole Mithras thing. My point was that all cultures throughout all time have had as part of their religious "mythology", a story about a saviour god who died for his people, rose again and ascended. It's not unique to Christianity. I believe it is universal enlightenment from God....and I believe that all religious men throughout all time have been trying to obey that command from God planted in their souls...
"look to me and be saved".
It's just that everyone has a different way of doing it.
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