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  #31  
Old 15th December 2002, 10:34 PM
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Who owned Israel before it was officially given back to the Jews?

Let's take a cross-section of history, and see what we find:
  • 721 BC - Assyrians conquer northern Kingdom of Israel and carry 10 of the 12 tribes into captivity and eventual dispersal.
  • 701 BC - Hezekiah successfully withstands Sennacherib's assault on Jerusalem.
  • 598-587 BC - Nebuchadnezzar's second invasion.
  • 597 BC - Babylonians capture Jerusalem.
  • 588-586 BC - Nebuchadnezzar's third invasion.
  • 586 BC - Destruction of Jerusalem and of the Temple by Nebuchadnezzar, and the exile of the Jews to Babylon.
  • 539 BC - Fall of Babylon.
  • 538 BC - Edict of Cyrus.
  • 537 BC - Remnant of about 50,000 Jews return from Babylon by edict of King Cyrus.
  • 520 BC - Work begins on rebuilding the Temple.
  • 515 BC - Completion and rededication of the Second Temple under Zerubbabel.
  • 458 BC - Ezra the Scribe comes from Babylon - Law of Moses revived.
  • 445 BC - Nehemiah appointed governor of Judea by Artaxerxes, returns from Babylon - rebuilds city walls.
  • 397 BC - Ezra the Scribe initiates religious reforms.
  • 332 BC - Alexander the Great defeats Daruis at Gaugamela, conquers Israel from the Persians, and captures Jerusalem.

  • 323 BC - Death of Alexander in Babylon - Wars of Succession begin.
  • 320 BC - Ptolemy I captures Jerusalem.
  • 320-198 BC - Rule of the Egyptian Ptolemies.
  • 198-167 BC Rule of the Syrian Seleucids.
  • 169 BC - Seleucid king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-163) outlaws Judaism and on December 25th, profanes the Temple.
  • 166 BC - The priest Mattathias begins Maccabean revolt.
  • 167-141 BC - Maccabean War of Liberation.
  • 164 BC - Judah Maccabee recaptures Jerusalem and restores the Temple.
  • 166-160 BC - Rule of Judah the Maccabee.
  • 160-143 BC - Rule of Jonathan.
  • 150 BC - Essene community founded.
  • 143-135 BC - Rule of Simon Maccabeus.
  • 63 BC - General Pompey captures Jerusalem for Rome.
  • 63-37BC - Hasmonean rules continues but under the protection of Rome.
  • 40 BC - Rome appoints Herod King of Judea.
  • 40 BC-AD 4 - Reign of Herod the Great.
  • 37 BC - King Herod the Great captures Jerusalem.
  • 19 BC - Preparation of stones for the rebuilding of the Temple.
  • 18 BC - Herod starts actual rebuilding of the Temple.
  • 10 BC - Although not complete until AD63, Temple is dedicated.
  • About 5/4 BC John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth born (year approximate.)
  • 04 BC - Herod the Great dies.
  • AD 26-36 - Pontius Pilate, Roman procurator of Judea for 10 years.
  • AD 31 - Crucifixion of Jesus.
  • AD 41-44 - Agrippa, king of Judea, builds new city wall (The "Third Wall".)
  • AD 44 - Death of Herod Agrippa.
  • AD 63 - Temple completed.
  • 66-73 - The Great Revolt: The War of the Jews against the Romans.
  • AD 70 - Fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the Second Temple by Titus.
  • AD 73 - Fall of Masada.
  • AD 132-135 - Bar Kochba's war of freedom - Jerusalem again the Jewish Capital.
  • AD 135 - Emperor Hadrian's total destruction of Jerusalem and building of new walls and new city renamed Aelia Capitolina; Jews not allowed in Jerusalem.
  • AD 326 - Queen Helena, mother of Emperor Constantine the Great, visits Jerusalem, determines locations of events associated with the last days of Jesus, and causes churches to be build to commemorate them, most notably the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in AD 335.
  • AD 438 - Empress Eudocia permits Jews to live in Jerusalem.
  • AD 614 - Persian conquest of Jerusalem - They destroy most churches and expel Jews.
  • AD 629 - Recaptured by Byzantines.
  • AD 638 - Six years after Mohammed's death, the Caliph Omar enters Jerusalem and Jews are readmitted to Jerusalem.
  • AD 691 - Dome of the Rock completed by Caliph Abd al-Malik.
  • AD 701 - The construction of the al-Aqsa mosque completed by Caliph al-Walid.
  • AD 1010 - Caliph al-Hakim orders destruction of synagogues and churches.
  • AD 1099 - Crusaders, led by Godfrey de Bouillon, capture of Jerusalem following Pope Urban's call in 1096. Baldwin I declared King of Jerusalem.
  • AD 1187 - Kurdish general Saladin captures Jerusalem from Crusaders. He permits Jews and Muslims to return and settle in the city.
  • AD 1192 - Richard the Lionheart attempts to re-capture Jerusalem but fails. Treaty with Saladin permitting Christians to worship at their Holy sites.
  • AD 1219 - City walls razed by Sultan Malik-al-Muattam.
  • AD 1244 - Khawarizmian Turks capture Jerusalem. End of Crusader rule.
  • AD 1244 - Mameluk Sultans defeat the Ayyubids and rule Jerusalem.
  • AD 1260 - The Mameluks of Egypt capture Jerusalem.
  • AD 1267 - Rabbi Moshe Ben Nahman (Memonides) arrives from Spain, revives the Jewish congregation and establishes synagogue and center of learning bearing his name.
  • AD 1275 - Marco Polo stops in Jerusalem on his way to China.
  • AD 1348 - The Black Plague hits Jerusalem.
  • AD 1488 - Rabbi Obadiah of Bertinoro settles in Jerusalem and leads the community.
  • AD 1517 - Ottomans effect peaceful takeover of Jerusalem.
  • AD 1537-1541 - Unwalled since 1219, Sultan Suleiman ("The Magnificent"), rebuilds the city walls including the present day 7 gates and the "Tower of David." The Damascus gate in 1542.
That's a 2,000+ year-old slice of Jewish history, replete with evidence to prove that the Jews are the historical owners of Israel.

I don't see the "Palestinians" anywhere.

Do you?
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  #32  
Old 15th December 2002, 10:35 PM
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Originally posted by Evangelion
David Gould -



The land was not "Palestinian at the time." The land was Jewish, and it was being rightfully returned to its true owners.

Following the proclamation of the state of Israel, she was immediately attacked by seven Arab nations simultaneously - and won!

Do you still want to say that "nothing bad happened" to Israel?
The land was Palestinian - it was actually called Palestine.

Perhaps I should have said, it is easy to forgive and forget when you were the winner ...
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  #33  
Old 15th December 2002, 10:36 PM
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Idea

Let's cast our minds back to the day which followed the declaration of the re-created Israel...

On May the 15th, 1948, seven neighboring Arab armies (Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen) declared war on the "new" state of Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the Jewish state were encouraged (by the invading Arab armies) to leave, so as not to be caught up in the wholesale slaughter of the Jews. They were also promised all Jewish property after the Arab armies won the war.

Nineteen months later, the war had ended. Against all the odds Israel had been victorious. Those Arabs who did not flee immediately became today's Israeli Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of "Palestinian Arab refugees."

The end result of the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence was the creation of a Jewish State slightly larger than that which was proposed by the United Nations two years before. What remained of that almost-created second Arab Palestinian State was gobbled up by Egypt (occupying the Gaza Strip) and by Trans-Jordan (occupying Judea-Samaria (the "West Bank" of the Jordan River) and Jerusalem. In the next year (1950) Trans-Jordan formally merged this West Bank territory into itself and granted all those Arabs living there Jordanian citizenship. Since Trans-Jordan was no longer confined to one side of the Jordan River, it renamed itself simply "JORDAN." In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of Palestine. Astonishingly, they wanted even more... :rolleyes:

From 1948-67, when all of Judea-Samaria (the West Bank, including Jerusalem!) ended up under Arab (Jordanian) control, no effort was evermade to create a second Palestinian State for the Arabs living there. Yes, that's right - the idea to create a Palestinian state was first proposed after this land had already left Arab hands! The Jordanians certainly had no intention of creating an Arab Palestinian state - and if I was a Palestinian, I'd be somewhat peeved at the fact that my Arab brethren possessed the most disputed sections of Israeli territory for nineteen years, and didn't do anything with it! If the Palestinians really belonged there, why didn't they create their own state while they had the chance? If this was really their historical homeland, why didn't they do what the Jews had done?

Food for thought...
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  #34  
Old 15th December 2002, 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by vegan
Because the attack proved a buffer zone of security was needed.  If I am getting beat with a bat and am able to get it away from my attacker, I dont give it back to him simply because it is his.  Remember the Muslims vowed to push Jews into the Mediterranean Sea.  Only a fool would give up their security!

Ahavat Yisrael!
There is no need for a buffer zone now and the "buffer zone" is what is causing Israelis to die now. If it were a true buffer zone, no Israelis would live there, would they?

No Arab nation has the resources to beat Israel. That is fact. No buffer zone is needed.

As to the rest of this debate, I do not want to get involved. My main point is that the Palestinians and the Israelis are individuals, not clumps. Talking about them as if they were clumps should be avoided if possible.
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  #35  
Old 15th December 2002, 10:38 PM
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David Gould -

The land was Palestinian - it was actually called Palestine.
ROTFL! Yes, the land was called "Palestine" - a name which was imprinted onto it by the Romans, 'way back in the days when it was still owned by the Jews!

You won't get anywhere by trying to argue that there was a special "homeland" of the "Palestinians" called "Palestine."

Perhaps I should have said, it is easy to forgive and forget when you were the winner ...
I would say that it's easy to forgive and forget when you've just received your historical homeland back again, after centuries of foreign invasion.
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  #36  
Old 15th December 2002, 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by Evangelion
Who owned Israel before it was officially given back to the Jews?

Let's take a cross-section of history, and see what we find:
  • 721 BC - Assyrians conquer northern Kingdom of Israel and carry 10 of the 12 tribes into captivity and eventual dispersal.
  • 701 BC - Hezekiah successfully withstands Sennacherib's assault on Jerusalem.
  • 598-587 BC - Nebuchadnezzar's second invasion.
  • 597 BC - Babylonians capture Jerusalem.
  • 588-586 BC - Nebuchadnezzar's third invasion.
  • 586 BC - Destruction of Jerusalem and of the Temple by Nebuchadnezzar, and the exile of the Jews to Babylon.
  • 539 BC - Fall of Babylon.
  • 538 BC - Edict of Cyrus.
  • 537 BC - Remnant of about 50,000 Jews return from Babylon by edict of King Cyrus.
  • 520 BC - Work begins on rebuilding the Temple.
  • 515 BC - Completion and rededication of the Second Temple under Zerubbabel.
  • 458 BC - Ezra the Scribe comes from Babylon - Law of Moses revived.
  • 445 BC - Nehemiah appointed governor of Judea by Artaxerxes, returns from Babylon - rebuilds city walls.
  • 397 BC - Ezra the Scribe initiates religious reforms.
  • 332 BC - Alexander the Great defeats Daruis at Gaugamela, conquers Israel from the Persians, and captures Jerusalem.

  • 323 BC - Death of Alexander in Babylon - Wars of Succession begin.
  • 320 BC - Ptolemy I captures Jerusalem.
  • 320-198 BC - Rule of the Egyptian Ptolemies.
  • 198-167 BC Rule of the Syrian Seleucids.
  • 169 BC - Seleucid king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-163) outlaws Judaism and on December 25th, profanes the Temple.
  • 166 BC - The priest Mattathias begins Maccabean revolt.
  • 167-141 BC - Maccabean War of Liberation.
  • 164 BC - Judah Maccabee recaptures Jerusalem and restores the Temple.
  • 166-160 BC - Rule of Judah the Maccabee.
  • 160-143 BC - Rule of Jonathan.
  • 150 BC - Essene community founded.
  • 143-135 BC - Rule of Simon Maccabeus.
  • 63 BC - General Pompey captures Jerusalem for Rome.
  • 63-37BC - Hasmonean rules continues but under the protection of Rome.
  • 40 BC - Rome appoints Herod King of Judea.
  • 40 BC-AD 4 - Reign of Herod the Great.
  • 37 BC - King Herod the Great captures Jerusalem.
  • 19 BC - Preparation of stones for the rebuilding of the Temple.
  • 18 BC - Herod starts actual rebuilding of the Temple.
  • 10 BC - Although not complete until AD63, Temple is dedicated.
  • About 5/4 BC John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth born (year approximate.)
  • 04 BC - Herod the Great dies.
  • AD 26-36 - Pontius Pilate, Roman procurator of Judea for 10 years.
  • AD 31 - Crucifixion of Jesus.
  • AD 41-44 - Agrippa, king of Judea, builds new city wall (The "Third Wall".)
  • AD 44 - Death of Herod Agrippa.
  • AD 63 - Temple completed.
  • 66-73 - The Great Revolt: The War of the Jews against the Romans.
  • AD 70 - Fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the Second Temple by Titus.
  • AD 73 - Fall of Masada.
  • AD 132-135 - Bar Kochba's war of freedom - Jerusalem again the Jewish Capital.
  • AD 135 - Emperor Hadrian's total destruction of Jerusalem and building of new walls and new city renamed Aelia Capitolina; Jews not allowed in Jerusalem.
  • AD 326 - Queen Helena, mother of Emperor Constantine the Great, visits Jerusalem, determines locations of events associated with the last days of Jesus, and causes churches to be build to commemorate them, most notably the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in AD 335.
  • AD 438 - Empress Eudocia permits Jews to live in Jerusalem.
  • AD 614 - Persian conquest of Jerusalem - They destroy most churches and expel Jews.
  • AD 629 - Recaptured by Byzantines.
  • AD 638 - Six years after Mohammed's death, the Caliph Omar enters Jerusalem and Jews are readmitted to Jerusalem.
  • AD 691 - Dome of the Rock completed by Caliph Abd al-Malik.
  • AD 701 - The construction of the al-Aqsa mosque completed by Caliph al-Walid.
  • AD 1010 - Caliph al-Hakim orders destruction of synagogues and churches.
  • AD 1099 - Crusaders, led by Godfrey de Bouillon, capture of Jerusalem following Pope Urban's call in 1096. Baldwin I declared King of Jerusalem.
  • AD 1187 - Kurdish general Saladin captures Jerusalem from Crusaders. He permits Jews and Muslims to return and settle in the city.
  • AD 1192 - Richard the Lionheart attempts to re-capture Jerusalem but fails. Treaty with Saladin permitting Christians to worship at their Holy sites.
  • AD 1219 - City walls razed by Sultan Malik-al-Muattam.
  • AD 1244 - Khawarizmian Turks capture Jerusalem. End of Crusader rule.
  • AD 1244 - Mameluk Sultans defeat the Ayyubids and rule Jerusalem.
  • AD 1260 - The Mameluks of Egypt capture Jerusalem.
  • AD 1267 - Rabbi Moshe Ben Nahman (Memonides) arrives from Spain, revives the Jewish congregation and establishes synagogue and center of learning bearing his name.
  • AD 1275 - Marco Polo stops in Jerusalem on his way to China.
  • AD 1348 - The Black Plague hits Jerusalem.
  • AD 1488 - Rabbi Obadiah of Bertinoro settles in Jerusalem and leads the community.
  • AD 1517 - Ottomans effect peaceful takeover of Jerusalem.
  • AD 1537-1541 - Unwalled since 1219, Sultan Suleiman ("The Magnificent"), rebuilds the city walls including the present day 7 gates and the "Tower of David." The Damascus gate in 1542.
That's a 2,000+ year-old slice of Jewish history, replete with evidence to prove that the Jews are the historical owners of Israel.

I don't see the "Palestinians" anywhere.

Do you?
And Native Americans were in the US for about 10,000 years prior to white settlement.

And Indigenous Australians were in Australia for perhaps 60,000 years prior to white settlement.

If you want to get involved in the "historical ownership" argument, go ahead. It is worthless.
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  #37  
Old 15th December 2002, 10:40 PM
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Incidentally, here's a few more points to consider:
  • Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in Palestine continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.
  • Many Jews were massacred by the Crusaders during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century-years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement-more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.
  • When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades.
  • Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century.
  • No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine.
  • When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said:

    There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not.
  • Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

    We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.
  • In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine:

    There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.
  • The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said:

    Palestine was part of the Province of Syria

    and that,

    politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity.
  • A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri (later the chairman of the PLO) told the Security Council:

    It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria.
  • Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.
  • Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence.
This additional information comes from the library of the American-Israeli Co-operative Enterprise - a non-partisan, non-profit organisation based in the United States of America.

Last edited by Evangelion; 15th December 2002 at 10:46 PM.
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  #38  
Old 15th December 2002, 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by David Gould
There is no need for a buffer zone now 
WHy, because all the Arab nations want peace? LOL. No threat? Iraq hit Tel Aviv with Scud missles 10 years ago!!!

Originally posted by David Gould


As to the rest of this debate, I do not want to get involved.
Why not? Evangelion brought up some excellent points.  You drew a line in the sand and stated your point of view.  Now stand up to the evidence that refutes what you said!

Ahavat Yisrael!
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  #39  
Old 15th December 2002, 10:44 PM
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Alert

David Gould -

And Native Americans were in the US for about 10,000 years prior to white settlement.

And Indigenous Australians were in Australia for perhaps 60,000 years prior to white settlement.
...and we have recognised their right to the land. (Haven't you heard of "Native Title"?)

If you want to get involved in the "historical ownership" argument, go ahead.
Well, I just have.

Now what are you going to do?

It is worthless.
Not at all. Your argument is nothing more than a fallacy of equivocation.
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  #40  
Old 15th December 2002, 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by vegan
WHy, because all the Arab nations want peace? LOL. No threat? Iraq hit Tel Aviv with Scud missles 10 years ago!!!



Why not? Evangelion brought up some excellent points.  You drew a line in the sand and stated your point of view.  Now stand up to the evidence that refutes what you said!

Ahavat Yisrael!
Um, so what you are saying is the buffer zone is worthless because Iraq hit them anyway? Please clarify which position you take - is it that the buffer zone does something or that it does nothing?

Which points do you want me to address? I see none.
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