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13th April 2006, 11:25 AM
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How do you scripturally justifiy allowing openly homosexual priests and/or women as priests? |
15th April 2006, 04:42 AM
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As a lifelong Episcopalian who feels that my denomination has left me, there can be no scriptural justification for ordaining presbyters who are openly homosexual.
Concerning the ordination of women to the presbyterate, along with J.I. Packer, I would consider the action to be unwise and politically motivated. I've listened to those on both sides of the debate, among evangelicals and Anglo-catholics, who demonstrate good exegesis of the texts that should be read. An agreement can't be reached because of different presuppositions about how knowledge of historical backgrounds should inform our reading of the text.
The Anglican Mission in America has decided not to ordain women and give a good justification from the NT for doing so. You can visit their website and read why. Also, the organization, Reform.org.uk, which is a UK evangelical reform group in the Church of England, also writes why they beleive the NT speaks against it.
My feeling is that there are a host of texts that have to be handled very carefully, like 1 Cor 7, for instance. Among the commentators who would fall into a particular group that I'm not sure how to describe other than solid evangelicals, there is often very good exegesis and biblical theology. My experience has taught me that they are usu. not Baptists but usu. British evangelicals (St. Andrews, Tyndale House, Cambridge, Wycliffe Hall, Oxford) or from Wheaton, Trinity Ev. Div. School, Denver Sem, Regent College (Vancouver), Westminster, Gordon Conwell, etc.
What needs to occur, in my view, is temporary restraint of the practice until there can be some kind of a consensus reached. That, unfortunately, appears unlikely. In the mean time, my prediction is that the liberal churches will implode for the reason that they will not grow or remain financially solvent while those that carry the Gospel forward faithfully will grow. Over the next 30-50 years, thinks Packer, there will be some shrinkage before there will be revitalization and growth. Please pray for us.
R. Scott Kimbrough
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17th April 2006, 10:02 AM
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Reps: 764,535,182,527,354,880 (power: 764,535,182,527,376) | | Originally Posted by Br. Max How do you scripturally justifiy allowing openly homosexual priests and/or women as priests?
1. I'm not sure what the issue of homosexual clergy has to do with Sacramental churches. There are homosexuals in all denominations, I suspect.
2. To MY knowledge, the Catholic and Orthodox faith communities do NOT permit the ordaination of openly gay priests.
3. I don't know if this thread is directly soly at the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Denomination and the Anglican communion, but this is an issue in all denominations. I know of a few Sacramental Protestant churches that specificially forbid opening, practicing gays from ministry (The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Amercia, the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church to name a few).
MY OWN personal view...
I have no problem with a homosexual being ordained or serving - as long as they abstain. But I realize that's a different subject for another thread and probably another forum.
MY $0.01...
- Josiah
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17th April 2006, 10:53 AM
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Reps: 1 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah 1. I'm not sure what the issue of homosexual clergy has to do with Sacramental churches. There are homosexuals in all denominations, I suspect.
Notice that I said priests and not ministers. As a member of a Sacramental church myself - I'm more interested in how other sacramental churches attempt to justify this practice. 2. To MY knowledge, the Catholic and Orthodox faith communities do NOT permit the ordaination of openly gay priests.
Which is why I name either in my title or OP. 3. I don't know if this thread is directly soly at the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Denomination and the Anglican communion, but this is an issue in all denominations. I know of a few Sacramental Protestant churches that specificially forbid opening, practicing gays from ministry (The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Amercia, the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church to name a few).
I know that the Old Catholic church and the Anglican Communion BOTH allow women and homosexual priests - but I am also sure that there are other churches out there that do as well. MY OWN personal view...
I have no problem with a homosexual being ordained or serving - as long as they abstain. But I realize that's a different subject for another thread and probably another forum.
Which is why I stated OPENLY homoseuxal.  |
17th April 2006, 10:55 AM
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Reps: 1 (power: 0) | | | R. Scott Kimbrough - have you considered leaving the Anglican communion if they do not condemn and discontinue this practice? |
17th April 2006, 11:28 AM
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Reps: 1,048,985,195,837,867,008 (power: 1,048,985,195,837,901) | | | Why does the Anglican church ordain women and Gays?
Because they are people, made in God's image and likeness. There is circumstantial evidence to suggest women in leadership roles in the early church and as for Gays and Lesbians. They are no more sinners than anyone else. If we will not ordain this kind of sinner, how can we possibly ordain that kind of sinner over there?
I am proud that the Church I am priested in (Anglican Church International) is both woman and gay-friendly.
Kiwimac aka Rev. Fr. Ray McIntyre
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dir="ltr"> "These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland... They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." - Ronald Reagan Father Ray McIntyre
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17th April 2006, 04:44 PM
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Reps: 1 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by kiwimac Why does the Anglican church ordain women and Gays?
Because they are people, made in God's image and likeness. There is circumstantial evidence to suggest women in leadership roles in the early church and as for Gays and Lesbians. They are no more sinners than anyone else. If we will not ordain this kind of sinner, how can we possibly ordain that kind of sinner over there?
I am proud that the Church I am priested in (Anglican Church International) is both woman and gay-friendly.
Kiwimac aka Rev. Fr. Ray McIntyre
the problem is that the Bible specifically names homosexual behavior an abomination. If you are openly and unrepentantly engaging in sinful behavior how can a church trust you to minister?
As for women in leadership roles - I have no problem with a woman as an evangelist - or as a pastor IF there are no qualified men available to fill that role - or as an elder - but I'm specifically talking about women in the priesthood. There is nothing in either the OT or the NT to justify such an action. There are not women in the priesthood of the OT and there are no women numbered among the apostles. Even Mary his own mother he made subject to the apostles. |
18th April 2006, 08:22 AM
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Kiwimac
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dir="ltr"> "These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland... They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." - Ronald Reagan Father Ray McIntyre
Anglican Church International
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18th April 2006, 11:01 AM
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Reps: 764,535,182,527,354,880 (power: 764,535,182,527,376) | | Originally Posted by Br. Max
I know that the Old Catholic church and the Anglican Communion BOTH allow women and homosexual priests - but I am also sure that there are other churches out there that do as well.
It might have been helpful to direct the question to those in those denominations, rather than to those in all Sacramental churches?
Originally Posted by Josiah MY OWN personal view...
I have no problem with a homosexual being ordained or serving - as long as they abstain. But I realize that's a different subject for another thread and probably another forum
To which was responded...
Originally Posted by Br.Max Which is why I stated OPENLY homoseuxal.
To be clear, I have nothing against OPENLY homosexuals being ordained as priests/clergy/ministers, as long as they abstain. My problem is not with the admission of an orientation toward sin (don't we all?) but rather on the acceptance and acting upon that. But that IS another issue for another thread and day!
Peace.
- Josiah
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__________________
.
All the above is MY fallible, personal opinion. I do not claim that when I speak, Jesus speaks or even that I'm correct.
NO offense - personal or otherwise - is intended or implied, and any interpretation to the contrary is incorrect.
My objective is to openly and honestly participate in the seeking of truth together with my FULL, unseparated, entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.
My thoughts on ChristianForums:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
What the Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura") is and is not:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Check out my "testimony" and "best posts" thread here:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
POLITICAL resolution: Power, Authority, Individualism, pride, lording it over others, lecture, demands for quiet submission.
RELATIONAL resolution: Humility, community, accountability,listening, consensus.
.
|
18th April 2006, 11:23 AM
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Reps: 1 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah It might have been helpful to direct the question to those in those denominations, rather than to those in all Sacramental churches?
I thought I made that clear in the title of the thread . . . .  | |
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